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From "Charles A. Monteiro" <char...@datasof.com>
Subject Re: Amazon
Date Tue, 26 Feb 2008 16:32:32 GMT
did not get your Java yet :), alright too corny could not resist :)

 from an outsider's perspective it seems to me that the  
Perl/Python/PHP/Ruby , have had such great success in the web space  
including great reusability that I can't fathom why somebody rational  
would consider Java as a replacement , but I don't want to quibble ,  
personally stay at least "dynamic" would be my 2 cents

On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 11:07:48 -0500, David Scott <ds94103@earthlink.net>  
wrote:

> You're no doubt right, my ANY referred to the Perl/Python/PHP/Ruby  
> family, not Java and Smalltalk.  I hadn't had my coffee yet, hope I  
> wasn't too incoherent...
>
> d
>
> Charles A. Monteiro wrote:
>> sory to intrude but this just caught my eye, that statement is contrary  
>> to the evidence, lots of "smart" people did not , have not made the  
>> paradigm shift to OO, they say they do but many code in OO languages in  
>> very non OO ways. It was not mentioned but moving over from one OO  
>> language to another is not that easy walk in the part type of thing.  
>> Going from Smalltalk to Java for example, is not fun due to immense  
>> productivity differences between the two i.e Smalltalk being dynamic  
>> and having constructs that just make it so much easier to work with. I  
>> have played with Ruby, it borrowed a lot of its collection  
>> functionality from Smalltalk and seems to have full block closures but  
>> yet no where close as far as productivity.
>>
>> anyhow, again I apologize for the intrusion, I realize that Smalltalk  
>> does not play in your world there. Although ironically, it does play  
>> well in a web world. Check out Seaside, a Smalltalk web framework which  
>> is getting a lot of play.
>>
>> -Charles
>>
>> On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 10:35:18 -0500, Ronald Dai. <Ronald@proexam.org>  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Agree with this sentence  "Any developer with a solid object-oriented  
>>> background in ANY of these
>>> languages can move comfortably into ANY of the others within a few
>>> days.".....and  I  think any smart person with good common sense would  
>>> understand OO in no time...
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> From: David Scott [mailto:ds94103@earthlink.net]
>>> Sent: Tue 2/26/2008 9:06 AM
>>> To: modperl@perl.apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: Amazon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I've seen that too.  Some engineering managers have an absolute phobia
>>> when it comes to Perl.  But some of these same managers turn right
>>> around and extol the virtues of Ruby.  Go figure.  As far as I can  
>>> tell,
>>> beyond a lot of syntactic sugar the two are virtually indistinguishable
>>> - except that Perl has been around longer and runs a lot deeper.  Same
>>> with Python.
>>>
>>> I think a lot of the debate boils down to culture.  Perl people tend to
>>> come from a sysadmin culture and are more comfortable working where the
>>> rubber hits the road.  PHP people tend to come from web dev, and really
>>> don't see the need to go too far beyond dynamic web pages.  Ruby and
>>> Python people tend to be Java refugees.  But the skill set involved in
>>> writing good code is no different, regardless of your background.
>>>
>>> Any developer with a solid object-oriented background in ANY of these
>>> languages can move comfortably into ANY of the others within a few
>>> days.  And none of them is Java - thank God!
>>>
>>> Also, remember that being a typed language does not make  
>>> object-oriented
>>> design patterns any easier.  If you read the original "Gang of 4" book
>>> there is no mention of Java or Ruby - in 1995 both were in their
>>> infancy!  But they do talk about Smalltalk, which is untyped.  Try that
>>> argument the next time you hit one of these "perl is evil" majordomos.
>>> You won't get the job, of course, but it will brighten up your day.
>>>
>>> d
>>>
>>> J. Peng wrote:
>>>> I like Perl than others. once a company wanted to hire me and gave me
>>>> much higher salary than the current job. But one of their conditions
>>>> is not permit to use perl, but use python instead. I'm familiar with
>>>> python too, but I hate that clause. So I gave up that job finally.:)
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Aaron Trevena  
>>>> <aaron.trevena@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 23/02/2008, Michael Lackhoff <michael@lackhoff.de> wrote:
>>>>>  >  - Perl usage is declining. I read some statistics from O'Reilly
 
>>>>> and
>>>>>  >     they showed that Perl book sales are going down.
>>>>>  >     A few years ago the 'P' in LAMP clearly was 'Perl', now it
is  
>>>>> 'PHP'
>>>>>  >     in most cases. Developers tend to go (even if slowly) where
 
>>>>> the money
>>>>>  >     is.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Sorry, you're making wild claims there - yes ORA perl book sales are
>>>>>  down, but then that really doesn't indicate much - most of the ORA
>>>>>  perl books have been around for ages and are on their 3rd or 4th
>>>>>  reprint. Hardly a surprise.
>>>>>
>>>>>  If you look at other more useful numbers you can see that the number
>>>>>  of contributors to CPAN and perl projects in increasing, the number
 
>>>>> of
>>>>>  jobs is steady or increasing, and that actually it's all rather
>>>>>  healthy.
>>>>>
>>>>>  A.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  --
>>>>>  http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk <http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk/>
>>>>>  LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>



-- 
Charles A. Monteiro
http://wiki.nycsmalltalk.org
http://www.monteirosfusion.com
http://monteirofusion.blogspot.com

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