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From "Neal Gamradt" <>
Subject Re: Some philosophical questions
Date Tue, 02 Aug 2005 18:42:48 GMT
Hello All,

I think the idea of a Wiki for EMBPerl is a great idea.  As for the domain 
name, I would say is a good choice.  It's easy to remember and 
it goes along with and being sort of community sites.

As for the whole philosophical debate.  I feel that any language can have 
bad programmers, that isn't the fault of the language.  I am currently 
working with Java code that was written by programmers who obviously did not 
want to work with an OO language and didn't understand the concept.  It is 
by far much worse than any Perl code I have ever worked with.

I live outside Atlanta, GA and I have come to find that there are very few 
Perl jobs that don't have Java as another job requirement.  Due to this fact 
I started learning Java because, well, I have to pay the bills.  Has anyone 
else found this trend?  With both languages on my resume it opens up a lot 
of job options.

I think Perl is one of the best programming languages ever created and it 
will always rank as one of my favorites.  However, I think Perl has a big 
uphill climb.  Java, PHP, and (unfortunately) .NET have gotten labeled as 
the hot new languages.  If you talk to some of the old-timers they will tell 
you about the time before SQL became the standard query language.  There 
were other query languages that I have been told were actually much better 
but SQL was easier to learn and got the marketing advantage.  Sadly, usually 
the best technologies donít win (e.g. VHS vs. Beta).  When I was in college 
I was basically told that Perl was a tired old language and I really had no 
interest for it until my first web programming job.  Unless some serious 
advocacy for Perl starts coming from Universities and other places of higher 
learning I am afraid Perl will not stay a mainstream language.

Anyway, I do want to thank Gerald for creating a great product.  I think it 
has a lot of potential and with the right marketing spin could become a good 
contender.  I know I have complained about issues with EMBPerl from time to 
time on the mailing list, but I do think it is one of the best web 
templating systems out there.  I agree that since Gerald is the sole 
developer I do not feel it should be his place to also build the community, 
if a product is good, the community will build on its own as long as it has 
a place to start.  I would rather see Gerald spend what time he can dedicate 
to EMBPerl fixing bugs instead of documentation and answering questions that 
have already been answered before.  That is why I think the Wiki is a great 
idea.  Besides, the bigger the online community, the easier it is to sell 
EMBPerl to the big bosses.

I know at my current job switching out websites from the painful Java code 
to EMBPerl would be a hard sell.  Java has a lot of third party apps and 
Java programmers are easy to find.  However, if the community were to grow 
that could change in the future.

If the Wiki doesnít find a home elsewhere, I could host it on my dedicated 
server.  My friends and I share a dedicated server and we might be moving to 
a different server soon.  That would maybe cause a disruption over a weekend 
if we switch (not sure if that would be a big deal or not).  My current job 
eats up almost all my time so I havenít had much free time for outside 
projects like this, however, I would like to contribute a little.  Just let 
me know.


From: Neil Gunton <>
To: "Hall, Philippe" <>
Subject: Re: Some philosophical questions
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 10:27:28 -0700

Hall, Philippe wrote:
>My colleague, Nick Deyoe, and I spent some time late last week
>experimenting with MediaWiki (PHP app) for this purpose.  We were hoping
>to offer hosting and support for the Wiki if we get it working to our
>Here's what we put together so far -- it's the default installation at
>this point:
>Neil, if you want to take a crack at it on your server with the
>'s software, I say go for it.  We're absolutely swamped, so I
>don't know how long it would take us to get it up and running.
> sounds pretty good to me.

I downloaded and installed Kwiki without any problem, and have it working 
now on my workstation and server under mod_perl. I'll wait and see what 
Gerald thinks about the domain choices (I agree, has a nice ring 
about it), and then get going on configuring the thing "for real". I'm ok 
with hosting the Wiki for now, I think it just takes someone to go ahead and 
"do it". I don't really have a lot of time to spare, since I'm very busy 
with my own projects. However I think Embperl needs a little nudge, so maybe 
I can do this thing and see what happens.

>Your idea of writing Wiki software in EmbPerl is great, and it would
>really provide a good example of how EmbPerl is at least as good as PHP
>for doing these kinds of things, even if we know it's actually better ;)

I agree, a Wiki in Embperl would be nice. However given the (apparent) 
extensive development that's already happened in Kwiki and its other plugin 
modules, I'm not sure what this would add. So, at least initially, I'm quite 
happy to just use what's already there, until I can see a good reason to 
make something else. Even then, it seems that the plugins allow you to 
customize Kwiki quite extensively.



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