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From Stas Bekman <s...@stason.org>
Subject Re: Current site crashes NS4
Date Tue, 30 Apr 2002 16:11:20 GMT
Jonathan M. Hollin wrote:
>>I beg your pardon, how is that different from "f**k" you option? If a 
>>user is stuck with NS4 and cannot upgrade, for whatever reason it is 
>>(e.g. public PC farm in school, with no HD write access), the advisory 
>>doesn't help anything. Do you agree?
> 
> 
> Yes.  You're correct.  I hadn't thought of that, thanks for pointing it
> out.
> 
> For these users, I would hope that they have other options.  It's to
> their advantage that you wisely chose to offer a PDF version of all the
> docs.  I'll say again, we're not excluding them, but they just might
> have to tolerate a few glitches.  

Well, that's what we are trying to achieve. As perfect as possible for 
standard complient browsers and usable in the others. Crashing browsers 
don't fit the definition of 'usable'.

> I would also suggest that these
> documents are available elsewhere on the net, on sites that aren't so
> strict about standards as ours.  Can we offer syndication (XML, RSS) for
> these other sites.

I don't know. Let's deal first with our immediate problems. We can 
always add this later.

>>>Are there any other options that I haven't considered?
>>
>>5) using the rewrite trick and supply a different stylesheet. But it 
>>seems that we will need more than one additional stylesheet and the 
>>maintenance will be a nightmare.
> 
> 
> I agree that this is good option.  Very viable and possibly the "holy
> grail".  If your later statement ("Nobody wants to nurse the site")
> applies then there is no maintenance nightmare as far as I can tell.
> :-)

Well, I think it was Bill who suggested it in first place. But I'm not 
sure it'll help, since it's not a problem of which CSS to use, but using 
CSS at all. If you remove CSS, the site won't render left and right 
parts the way it has too.


>>6) fix the problem with NS4. It seems to be a fresh problem.
> 
> 
> And invest even more time chasing the bug...  Our team has better things
> to do I think.

Yes, invest more time into chasing bugs. You are fine with workarounding 
bugs for IE5 but not for NS4, I'm not following you.

>>7) Have you read Allan's fresh IE5 woes? "f**k" IE5 users too?
> 
> 
> Surely this isn't a serious argument.  We all know that we can get it to
> work perfectly in IE 4+, these bugs will be much easier and less
> time-consuming to fix than the NS4 issues.  Or am I wrong?

You sound so sure, I hope this is true. Unfortunately I cannot work on 
those problems, since I (luckily) don't run winFU.

>>Nobody wants to nurse the site. We need to get back to coding and we 
>>don't have a full time webmaster to do this work for us. 
>>Ideally we want 
>>to finish the design and forget about evolving for some time 
>>to come and 
>>only work on the content. At least this is my vision.
> 
> 
> In an ideal world yes.  But there is bound to be an initial snagging
> list, there always is.  That's not to say that the site will be
> perpetually "nursed".  Alternatively, we could just keep on losing time
> with our current course of action.

I'm sorry Jonathan, but I've been in this place for 3+ years and I know 
how things [don't] work here. The moment the storm settles down, the 
site will be neglected for years to come. Why do you think the current 
site is in the shape that you see it? That's after I've done a few face 
liftups to the front page. It was horrors in first place. No core 
developer is caring about the site, they are too busy with other things 
to do.

Therefore we must bring the site to the state where everybody is happy 
to the degree that the site is not worst than it was before. If the site 
doesn't look very good in someone's browser, we have a good excuse: you 
want the old site? If the site is crashes their browser, this excuse 
won't work.

Believe me, if you want the real world as you call it, plan for a freeze 
for years to come. That means finding the setup where things don't 
crash. Running it through the modperl list and squashing *real* 
problems, release the site and forget the cvs password for the /tmpl 
directory. Think of it as a TV box, you go, buy it, bring it home and 
then you watch it while the content gets changed. That's what our plan 
should be. Think hardware with no firmware for bugs workarounds.

If we succeed doing that, I'll be a happy man, you will be happy people, 
the mod_perl community will be happy and you will deal with happy things 
from the release on.

__________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman            JAm_pH ------> Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/     mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org
mailto:stas@stason.org http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com
http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org   http://ticketmaster.com


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