From dev-return-3328-archive-asf-public=cust-asf.ponee.io@openwhisk.apache.org Fri Mar 15 12:06:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: archive-asf-public@cust-asf.ponee.io Delivered-To: archive-asf-public@cust-asf.ponee.io Received: from mail.apache.org (hermes.apache.org [140.211.11.3]) by mx-eu-01.ponee.io (Postfix) with SMTP id 23226180627 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2019 13:06:18 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 78357 invoked by uid 500); 15 Mar 2019 12:06:18 -0000 Mailing-List: contact dev-help@openwhisk.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: dev@openwhisk.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list dev@openwhisk.apache.org Received: (qmail 78341 invoked by uid 99); 15 Mar 2019 12:06:17 -0000 Received: from pnap-us-west-generic-nat.apache.org (HELO spamd4-us-west.apache.org) (209.188.14.142) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Fri, 15 Mar 2019 12:06:17 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spamd4-us-west.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at spamd4-us-west.apache.org) with ESMTP id 14E19C288F for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2019 12:06:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at spamd4-us-west.apache.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.801 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.801 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=disabled Authentication-Results: spamd4-us-west.apache.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mx1-lw-eu.apache.org ([10.40.0.8]) by localhost (spamd4-us-west.apache.org [10.40.0.11]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gAhWIGvoksl3 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2019 12:06:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-ot1-f50.google.com (mail-ot1-f50.google.com [209.85.210.50]) by mx1-lw-eu.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at mx1-lw-eu.apache.org) with ESMTPS id 1D61860F89 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2019 12:06:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ot1-f50.google.com with SMTP id x8so8119590otg.7 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2019 05:06:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=WsWzdj5SdPoKW5TTeo7pc+jtnitzXAJbPvOKvclEYLo=; b=Z5ZyPm8GJ36UVfRh6WaHpLe2dkkOQhHsTKMlv0FdbEGNvsV6gWFGRUdW3hbXU5sQB9 y2A6zg/aXpwT33/xXrP0L7OfcRSdklP5pQPIMfnNaT8EI/kgvxXSnNHQt9Z/CZUg05RN xTQbe15dnr80jW4Ng0DhvQmrty4P/SvCQx4VWUvj9dAG+BXDgH3We4QRMRQWPnZx+Stx ZFdl+Xq08uYCT0/nCMa1cfXRpKSfjqCVM/cOEkNhUUW8feYU0ggZBIW1kKygulpCFL+n 7h6t7mAdOfoDNHbMZiz3Rqiz0nNZdYqdcs7EcqqD6zxu5SEF2KjfXabgtXJhAq2vgd7i 6XEw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=WsWzdj5SdPoKW5TTeo7pc+jtnitzXAJbPvOKvclEYLo=; b=o31Wnj+zqh8Rw5cunJxDpcUVdsAlgdWR9Vs6qJek9ceAFLYe8HVd9auceSvRA4iSxG ve02L9NlI0Uu9IFcj+84UlixJtuETjnUjM0rFG+DUXWGJ5/Lv2Oea8DsvTX8osOEC91V DR2LlsWtDqeYVJxNbZmsVvOPmY8oqnVr8bx7WzKZXI7F+PQYwoAJ10KBN8jw8Em6P0rC FTfIyiaU6vIPPxjean0hRvnpxK+nvEIjOW3/tyDY4rVIj4AtMS8GvSTrWDXOznQEUEOx RgLnHK5wbWxEL0vAi0Fn1NWRtuljRTH7z9cZW9H/fDMJBQiCCXkl3JT39LAzQ7mo9IWh d03g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWO9fTEmuq8dq259D85MpTuZ6kB1hdrO4tYXoj00aZNrxT0FgJ+ x9M/9b4Xak1x3XKk8JuCPyFavc7MK6HSiZL/KNFUkZ/Y X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx8VoM9OVfWfICSLZJFZ9DnnXGri0mZx+ma/dRzmOQ5bTvbeSVBRjxi6h0fNrLRJUISTNkZ9auGzosauy14UtA= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:77d0:: with SMTP id w16mr1943204otl.189.1552651572349; Fri, 15 Mar 2019 05:06:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <26cc60a9-56ed-4d65-997c-f21c8ee35b38@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: James Thomas Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2019 12:06:00 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: OpenWhisk Apps on Knative To: dev@openwhisk.apache.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006e11c5058420dd2f" --0000000000006e11c5058420dd2f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My 2 cents (from a personal perspective - these views are my own and not my employers yada yada)... Despite the marketing hype, (at the moment) knative isn't a serverless platform like openwhisk. It's a Containers-as-a-Service platform (which scales from zero) than a Functions-as-a-Service platform. It exposes lots of low-level plumbing to the user, (scaling behaviour, k8s YAML, images), which is all hidden in a serverless platform. I think the description on their Github organisation makes more sense... "Kubernetes-based platform to build, deploy, and manage modern serverless workloads". Building primitives into k8s to make running serverless workloads easier make sense. It doesn't necessary mean that developers will use these primitives directly. All the current open-source faas platforms (openwhisk, openfaas, kubeless, fission, fn project..) have had to implement the same custom runtime primitives on top of lower-level infrastructure services. Those services (roughly) map to the knative projects (build, serving, events) being proposed. If you follow Simon Wardley's work, you'll recognise this as a known process as these components shifting from custom-built/product-rental to commodity/utility on the technology evolution lifecycle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DNnFeIt-uaEc In theory, Apache OpenWhisk adopting those knative primitives means we can focus on higher-order systems and new innovations in the serverless space, whilst leaving the lower-level plumbing to the downstream project. Kelsey Hightower has regularly stated both k8s and knative are tools for building platforms, not the platforms developers use. https://twitter.com/kelseyhightower/status/1104041461836787712 https://twitter.com/kelseyhightower/status/1099710178545434625 There are lots of questions about knative that make things more challenging=E2=80=A6. - Will knative stay as lower-level k8s primitives to run serverless workloads or move "up the stack" and starts to provide developer tools o= r frameworks for serverless apps? The former leaves a gap for openwhisk, t= he later less so much (in openwhisk's current incarnation). - What is the governance model for knative? It is not in a foundation at the moment and currently (mostly) controlled by Google. Re-basing solely= on knative comes with more of a risk until this is cleared up. - Knative is still extremely immature, it's at like v0.4. The projects under the knative organisation, their APIs and goals might change substantially over the next 12-24 months. On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 at 01:45, Carlos Santana wrote: > I echo Dave=E2=80=99s words > > To add: > > OpenWhisk was born before Kubernetes was mainstream > > OpenWhisk took advantage at that time of Docker CLI and Docker Engine > avoiding to re-invent the wheel. > > OpenWhisk was build and deploy using bash and ant at one point, then > gradle, ansible, compose and later Helm > > Kubernetes has become mainstream and there are things that OpenWhisk do > and is concerned today that could be delegated to Kubernetes or Kubernete= s > ecosystem tools and patterns such as Istio, CRD, Controllers, Operators, > etc... > > Like Dave said OpenWhisk can still provide a a better developer experienc= e > to people that just want to build serverless applications and don=E2=80= =99t have > any interest on how the low level infrastructure, installation, deploymen= t, > or scaling layers work. > > Maybe it means additions to v1, maybe it takes a re-imagination as a v2, > maybe it takes building on top of Knative, maybe takes integrating trigge= r > providers in the form of native CRDs and Operators, or maybe fusing parts > of both projects > > Like Dave said is up to the community and not a single person or single > company > > - Carlos Santana > @csantanapr > > > On Mar 13, 2019, at 9:17 PM, David P Grove wrote: > > > > > > "Michele Sciabarra" wrote on 03/13/2019 04:08:1= 5 > > PM:=3D > >> > >> So, is the focus of the project shifting on Knative? Dropping the > >> current invoker and controller, keeping the runtimes and run them > >> with Knative? > >> > > > > My 2 cents as an individual is that there is quite a bit of value in > being > > able to program against the OpenWhisk programming model and its runtime= s > in > > a more Kubernetes-centric world. > > > > I think it is still an open question what the best underlying runtime > > system for that programming model is (and even if there is a single bes= t > > runtime system that spans all the possible scenarios in terms of scale, > > multi-tenancy, etc.). As a system researcher, one of the best ways I kn= ow > > to explore that question is to be able to run the exact same > > program/workload on multiple runtime systems under different scenarios > and > > measure what happens. > > > > Our current runtime system probably does need to evolve to better explo= it > > Mesos/Kubernetes (eg Tyson's recent PR). Kubernetes itself is likely t= o > > evolve to better support FaaS-style workloads so we will be able to hav= e > a > > thinner OpenWhisk-specific layer. I don't think we should expect every > > runtime system design decision we have made to hold constant as > technology > > evolves around us. But the system-level OpenWhisk runtime could > completely > > change without any disruption to the user-level programming model and > > developer tooling. For example, IBM Cloud Functions switched from a > > "classic" ansible-driven VM-based deployment to a Kubernetes-based > > deployment of OpenWhisk in the middle of 2018. None of our customers > > noticed or cared (from their perspective nothing changed and all their > > existing programs still run just fine). > > > > Finally, the focus of this project is where the community takes it. We > can > > even go multiple directions simultaneously. That's how open source work= s > :) > > > > > > --dave > --=20 Regards, James Thomas --0000000000006e11c5058420dd2f--