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From Matt Sicker <>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] graduation from the incubator
Date Tue, 19 Mar 2019 18:27:08 GMT
So I have some agreements with Bertrand here. I obviously don't work
on this project full time (my full time work is involved in developing
Jenkins), and the Slack digests, while useful, are nearly impossible
to read whenever a large amount of discussion happens during a day,
particularly because synchronous communication is mixed in with the
typical development talk that would benefit most from being
asynchronous. Another limitation I find there is that I can't exactly
reply to digests, so having a longer term conversation that way
doesn't exactly work.

Suppose, for example, I'm a contributor from a timezone not typically
aligned with the times most of the full time engineers work on this
project. Then having a back and forth conversation on Slack can easily
get lost in the history, particularly because I haven't exactly seen
judicious use of threads, either (which are themselves limited to a
single level of threading unlike email). The large amounts of
unnecessary messages that come in with a digest make it much harder to
follow the technical discussions compared to, say, the threads I've
seen on dev@ and GitHub issues. This also makes it harder for anyone
who didn't see the initial Slack thread to contribute to the

In all, I'm very impressed by the maturity of this project so far.
It's certainly a production-ready project from what I can tell, but
I'm still concerned about the chat. This would still be a concern even
if the ASF hosted Slack itself (which isn't currently possible
anyways) or some other chat service. Basically, in a distributed OSS
project like with ASF projects, I'd expect to be able to contribute
outside work hours (e.g., nights and weekends) as a hobby, and having
communications be focused in media such as mailing lists, forums, and
issue trackers makes it much easier to keep up to date with things,
filter out topics I don't care about, and maintain conversations over
a period longer than a few hours or days. For a work comparison, do
you bother reading all your missed Slack messages when you come back
from a week or two of vacation? If so, you're much faster than I am at
communication, and I'm already reading way too many mailing lists as
it is. :D

My suggestion as to how to improve this wouldn't be the daily digest.
My suggestion would be to ensure any development conversations that
take place on Slack should be recreated on the mailing lists. This can
be based on or start from the digest or chat log, but coming up with a
summary of what was discussed along with providing an easier to use
anchor point for further discussion would go a long way toward helping
address this disconnect. As we typically say over in Commons or the
other more volunteer-driven projects at ASF: if it didn't happen on
the mailing list, it didn't happen!

On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 at 12:25, Michael Marth <> wrote:
> Matt, all,
> Strongly agree.
> My understanding is that moving from ASF incubator to TLP is not (at all) a statement
about the technology but a statement about the community, its diversity (in terms of stakeholders)
and ability to carry forward the project. I agree with everyone on this thread that OpenWhisk
has proven to have achieved that mile stone
> (but it does not hurt the cause to say that the technology runs in production and is
> Cheers
> Michael
> ´╗┐On 19.03.19, 16:56, "Matt Rutkowski" <> wrote:
>     Thanks Dave for raising graduation as a topic.
>     To be clear... +1 (with stars) from me on moving to graduate...
>     It is my belief that this project has reached a maturity level, with credits to its
devoted community, over the last 2 plus years to graduate.  It has been no small task to bring
under Apache compliance the numerous repos. this project manages and to deal with the ever-changing
landscape of Serverless and remain relevant as new technologies and projects continue to enter
this space.
>     IMO, no other Serverless project offers a complete open source FaaS platform solution
that supports such a wide array of deployment choices, runtimes, tooling (and I could go on
and on) while striving to enable choice for via documented plug-in points for common platform
integrations such as logging, metrics and test tooling, but also, for very complex topics
such as load balancing, scheduling and container pooling.
>     This project is has matured to a point, where it should be noted, that we are aware
it is used in several public production offerings as a Serverless platform directly or as
the backing for FaaS integrations (such as for API management or web hosting).
>     If you cannot tell, I am all for moving towards graduation and (prompted seeing this
thread appear yesterday) have cleared my day to complete filling out the maturity model matrix
on our CWIKI (see
to the best of my abilities and will be asking for comment/review/edits on a separate thread
once I complete my draft pass.
>     In truth, over the course of the last 2 years, I have have truly witnessed the community
itself become a welcoming family that cares first and foremost about the code and improving
and enabling it for its user base while establishing friendships that transcend other affiliations.
>     Cheers,
>     Matt
>     On 2019/03/15 22:06:38, "David P Grove" <> wrote:
>     >
>     >
>     > I'd like to kick off a discussion to assess the project's readiness for
>     > graduation from the incubator.
>     >
>     > Per Rodric's recent stats [1], the community has developed nicely in terms
>     > of code contribution.
>     >
>     > We've released a number of software components following the Apache release
>     > process.  We are in the midst of making our first "uber-release" across all
>     > of our sub-components (expect at least 2 voting threads next week).
>     >
>     > Overall I think the community is active.  Communication on the project
>     > slack is frequent (avg of >160 messages a day) and is now digested daily
>     > the dev list. (See [2] for stats).
>     >
>     > There are a couple procedural tasks we still need to complete, foremost
>     > being the formal transfer of the OpenWhisk trademarks from IBM to the ASF.
>     > But I think we can assume that these tasks will be completed and start
>     > considering graduation in parallel.
>     >
>     > Please share your thoughts,
>     >
>     > --dave
>     >
>     > [1]
>     >
>     > [2]
>     >
>     >

Matt Sicker <>

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