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From Rodric Rabbah <rod...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: factoring out "runtimes" into deployment configuration
Date Fri, 10 Mar 2017 10:32:08 GMT
For 1. The cli now is doing the inference for you, sure we can replace that inference with
an image name so instead of --kind python you'd write --image openwhisk/python. But...

The issue more generally however is if you don't solve 2, making it easier for users to use
images is going to get them penalized for using arbitrary but openwhisk-compatible images.
So without addressing how to pull images to local docker registries at create time for example,
this is a non starter in my opinion. 

The difference with the openwhisk/* images is that they are already pulled, hence that addresses
2 for a limited set of images. These are the popular images, per se. If we're missing one,
we add it to the manifest.

There is still, I posit, a need to know which are the "popular" or approved images to use.
That's what the manifest now centralizes into the deployment configuration.

-r

> On Mar 10, 2017, at 2:01 AM, Alex Glikson <GLIKSON@il.ibm.com> wrote:
> 
> I can think of couple of ways to make what you called "kind-aware 
> blackbox" actions more developer-friendly:
> 1. Support them in the CLI (i.e., supporting both "image" and "code" 
> arguments). This would make the developer experience straightforard.
> 2. Generalize the caching/pooling mechanism to handle *popular* images, 
> rather than a hard-coded set of "native" kind images. This would eliminate 
> the performance overhead.
> 
> Regards,
> Alex
> 
> P.S. Once we do #1 and #2 above, my claim is that we don't need 
> pre-defined set of "kind" images any more, and just need a flexible 
> hierarchy of images that anyone can reuse and extend
> 
> Markus Thömmes <markusthoemmes@me.com> wrote on 10/03/2017 12:48:17 AM:
> 
>> From: Markus Thömmes <markusthoemmes@me.com>
>> To: dev@openwhisk.apache.org
>> Date: 10/03/2017 12:48 AM
>> Subject: Re: factoring out "runtimes" into deployment configuration
>> 
>> What you're referring to is basically a "kind-aware" blackbox 
>> action, where you get the easyness of injecting your code and the 
>> flexibility of using whatever you want in the image as long as the 
>> interface fits.
>> 
>> I generally like the idea and brought it up as well once (i custom 
>> built a blackbox to do something similar). Note though that the same
>> performance implications as with blackbox images apply.
>> 
>> Von meinem iPhone gesendet
>> 
>>> Am 09.03.2017 um 23:43 schrieb Dascalita Dragos <ddragosd@gmail.com>:
>>> 
>>> With the "runtimeManifest" property I'm wondering if we can also 
> expose the
>>> name of the container image instead of having to compute it in the 
> code ?
>>> Extending the thought: what if we allow users to specify a custom 
> container
>>> name when creating / updating actions, in case users want to ?
>>> 
>>> I'm thinking at the use-case when a package with a group of actions
>>> requires multiple libraries for each action. To simplify my example 
> I'm
>>> going to refer only to JS actions:
>>> -   Today: when actions needs extra libs users have 2 options :
>>>    a) create a zip
>>>    b) browserify/"compile" JS into a single JS file
>>> -   What I'm thinking: allow users to create their own "runtime" image
>>> where they can bundle those dependent libs into. All the actions in 
> the
>>> package would be smaller, they would use less space and would probably 
> flow
>>> easier through the system when being invoked. A potential problem in 
> this
>>> case would be whether it's secure to let users push their own images 
> in the
>>> OW nodes, but at the same time allowing them to upload a ZIP is
>>> conceptually also a "package"/"container" that can contain anything; I
>>> guess the security aspect would still remain even with user-defined
>>> containers.
>>> 
>>> Dragos
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 4:20 AM Michael Marth <mmarth@adobe.com> 
> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Rodric,
>>>> 
>>>> I think that?s great.
>>>> 
>>>> Only comment (more to Matt than you):
>>>> If the runtimes are dynamic by deployment (and of course over time) 
> this
>>>> probably should be reflected in the packaging format spec [1].
>>>> (see also previous comment [2]:)
>>>> 
>>>> - line 252: not sure if the list of runtime names should be in the
>>>> normative
>>>> section of a spec, because (as you also write) this list will 
> fluctuate
>>>> between
>>>> deployments and over time. OTOH there should be established well 
> known
>>>> names for
>>>> well-known runtimes. Maybe point to a community-curated, separate 
> markdown
>>>> file
>>>> (where new entries get a PR that can be voted upon)?
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Michael
>>>> 
>>>> [1]
>>>> https://github.com/openwhisk/openwhisk-wskdeploy/blob/master/
>> specification/openwhisk_v0.8.pdf
>>>> [2] http://markmail.org/message/pa35wxxl52tvbfxc
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 05/03/17 17:39, "Rodric Rabbah" <rodric@gmail.com<mailto:
>>>> rodric@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I've been thinking about how we can add more action runtimes more 
> easily -
>>>> without changing the backend (API, controller, invoker, CLI). One way 
> I'm
>>>> leaning toward and started prototyping to get a better understanding 
> of the
>>>> feasibility is to strip all runtime types from the backend (and CLI) 
> and
>>>> encode the information about what action runtimes the system supports
>>>> through configuration parameters.
>>>> 
>>>> This will make it possible to decouple deploying the core components 
> from
>>>> managing the action runtime images. An example of encoding the 
> runtime
>>>> information in a deployment configuration is
>>>> https://github.com/openwhisk/openwhisk/pull/1948.
>>>> 
>>>> In support of this general direction (even if we settle on a 
> different
>>>> approach), I have increasingly flattened the "Exec" type hierarchy in 
> the
>>>> backend[1-3]
>>>> 
>>>> [1] https://github.com/openwhisk/openwhisk/pull/1938
>>>> [2] https://github.com/openwhisk/openwhisk/pull/1942
>>>> [3] https://github.com/openwhisk/openwhisk/pull/1911
>>>> 
>>>> A sketch of how to use the runtime manifest can be seen in this WIP 
> commit:
>>>> 
>>>> https://github.com/rabbah/openwhisk/commit/
>> a8890abe51a3e7e6a34f96a46798de660583e36f
>>>> 
>>>> I can see how using this we can add new versions of Node.js, 
> python:3, and
>>>> other handy images by curating a list of these in a separate process.
>>>> 
>>>> Feedback, as always, solicited and appreciated.
>>>> 
>>>> -r
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
> 
> 

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