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From "Think" <>
Subject RE: Being Good, was: RE: Reading and Exporting spreadsheets--another commentary
Date Wed, 08 Jan 2014 01:15:09 GMT
Troll, per Wikipedia:

"In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet
by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic
messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally[3][4]
or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[5] or of otherwise
disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[6]"

"Like any pejorative term, it can be used as an ad hominem attack, suggesting a negative motivation"

I believe the topic had something to do with people commenting how people were treating each
other on this listserv. So I was on topic.

I was calling on people in the group to act in a coordinated manner to ensure that the dripping
sarcasm, bullying and abuse stopped on this listserv. Trolls work to sew discord, not to protect
other people.

I was not looking to provoke an emotional response, I was looking to urge the listserv members
and the moderators to reassess what was happening on this listserv and to behave appropriately.
I think I succeeded in this area. I actually think the moderators should be replaced. That
is not a threat, that is merely my opinion. If this much nastiness is being tolerated by the
moderators and people are not getting banned for this behavior, the moderators are failing
and should be replaced.

As to mailing lists. I sit on a mailing list of over 1100 users at a major university, most
of them work at the university. I am well aware of proper etiquette regarding listservs. Additionally
I utilized listservs and BBS' before most people had an internet connection, and I op'd on
IRC on on a channel with hundreds of thousands of users. I work in policy and law.
Every. Day. I believe in obeying the same rules that I ask others to obey.

And again, we have the concept of "ad hominem." Attacking me voids your argument. This is
not about me. This is about the behavior of those who post on this listserv.

And yes, I believe in spreading "wonderful." I gave up my entire weekend to help a Chinese
scholar at my university who didn't speak English get her power back on -- her brother did
not pay the bill from China and she has a seven year old. I put aside my work the entire weekend,
despite being under deadline, and also part of yesterday to do so. I am not a hero, I am just
a neighbor. What did you do with your weekend Mr. Holtzman? After all if you are going to
attack me publicly, we might as well get to know each other. (And what I just stated was on
topic as no one has seen fit to publicly dress down Mr. Holtzman for this topic turn, so I
will follow it.)

Brenda Hart Neihouse

PS: an interesting quote I ran across tonight:

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he doesn't become a monster.

Friedrich Nietzsche

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Holtzman [] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2014 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: Being Good, was: RE: Reading and Exporting spreadsheets--another commentary

On Mon, Jan 06, 2014 at 11:09:55PM -0500, Think wrote:

I seldom reply to trolls but I'll make an exception in this case.

> I have been quietly watching the notes back and forth and have only once or twice ventured
into the writing and reading space of this list. Once, someone told me I digressed too much
and that I was wrong for having bothered everyone with my verbiage.


> I was like "wow, dude. I thought the listserv was for talking about the product."

Again true. Get it?
> Since then, I have been watching and reading.
> Personally, I am disgusted at how many of you treat each other.
> I am an advocate for disabled people. I "yell" at people for a "living" (I don't get
paid for it so I have to use the "".) And even I refuse to stoop so low as to denigrate someone
for being frustrated or for having newbie problems.
> I am 53. I coded in Fortran in 1974. I was on a mainframe before most of you knew what
a computer was. I hand coded HTML from the early 90's until 2002. I owned a brand development
firm. I ran five businesses. My largest project management job was a 14million$ project in
my early 30's. I am currently relearning CSS after going 12 years without coding a website,
because I was doing other things. I am learning it so I can direct our web designer and our
back end coder.

My God you're wonderful.

> Open office is interesting to me because our project, the elai Project, will be licensed
wholly under the Creative Commons License. So I wanted to specify one all purpose software
package for the project, and for every organization that adopts the package. Initially, elai
will help to make libraries completely accessible to disabled people. Hospitals are next,
with police stations, and many other locally, state and federally funded organizations following.
> But after watching you guys take pot shots at each other and work from an "I don't have
to be nice to anyone" paradigm, I am about to throw in the towel on OO or alternatively to
warn elai Project participants to stay away from the listserv.
> Be nice. Grow up. Get outside of yourselves and help each other. Focus on where you connect
and not where you disagree. 
> And posters: don’t assume that everyone is here to help you. They have their own lives
and their own jobs and their own families and priorities. Be polite. Don't be a bull in a
china shop.

In case you haven't already learned it, attitudes are learned early in life. You aren't going
to change them by lecturing on this (or any
other) list. Save your figurative breath and your time. If it's too much for you to bear,
well.....don't let the door hit you on your way out.

> And if more experienced users set a good example, it's more likely the newbies will follow
> Likely this list needs a moderator. Does it have one? I am not stepping up for the job,
but someone with a sense of Zen and no fear of confrontation should.
> If you want to flame me, you might want to think again. Most of your ISP's have a policy
of no spam/hate/scam/flame. I have reported people to their ISP's before and I will do it
again. There is a difference between free speech and hate speech. Hate speech is not protected
under the Constitution and your ISP's won't tolerate it either.

Threats can get you kicked off the list if you continue.

> Please stop treating each other like garbage. For none of you is garbage. Each of you
just comes from your own singular perspective, some of you are frustrated, some of you don't
understand how this works and some of you need some perspective.
> Perspective, best served up warm.

Sure thing, Mom.

P.S. It appears that you're unfamiliar with the protocol of posting to a mail list re: over

Bob Holtzman
Your mail is being read by tight lipped NSA agents who fail to see humor in Doctor Strangelove
Key ID 8D549279

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