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From Armin Le Grand <Armin.Le.Gr...@me.com>
Subject Re: Suggested modifications to Open Office Draw
Date Thu, 23 Jan 2014 14:48:53 GMT
Thanks Andrea, looking through the useful suggestions...

On 19.01.2014 02:26, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
> Forwarding to the list. Ian, I don't have any merit for the answers, I 
> was forwarding a message from Armin. Please always include 
> dev@openoffice.apache.org in your responses. If you need more details 
> on how our mailing lists work, see 
> http://openoffice.apache.org/mailing-lists.html ; if you don't receive 
> an answer, make sure you check the archives: 
> http://markmail.org/message/jvt6q5vslflz6u35 or subscribe to the list 
> as explained above.
>
> Ian's comments below.
>
> Regards,
>   Andrea.
>
> Ian Symons wrote:
>> Hello Andrea
>>
>> Thank you for the response.
>>
>> RE
>> 1. Left side ruler.
>> Depending upon the zoom level, numbers from 100 up often form a
>> continuous numeric stream.
>> They can be interpreted, but it is so much easier if you can read it at
>> a glance.

Okay, so - as a first step - defining the jumps to new numberings to 
avoid that would be a good first step? If yes, a enhancement task with a 
case where this happens in bugzilla would be nice.

>>
>> RE:
>> 2a. Snap Lines, Snap Points and Grid
>>
>> I am talking about objects that help positioning.
>> For example you might set a guide line at Y=100.
>> Then when positioning / modifying shapes, the guide may be clicked on
>> instead of the shape.
>> This is particularly troublesome when a line or point lies on or close
>> to the guideline.
>> When this happens the tiniest movement of the mouse will shift the guide
>> line.
>>
>> This problem would be solved if the guides (or snap point) can be locked
>> preferably via their existing UI dialog box.
>> This would then operate in the same manner as shapes that can be locked
>> in position via their Position & Size UI dialog box.

A good suggestion, esp since guides have no undo actions. Maybe a 
pinpoint close to the edge of the page (helplines are always connected 
to the outer bounds of the eit window) would be nice, additionally to 
the possibility to lock them in the dialog. Also worth an enhancement 
task in bugzilla.

>>
>> RE:
>> 2b.
>> My apologies, I phrased my question badly.
>> Yes, you do have X-Y co-ordinates displayed.
>> Perhaps it is just on my computer (a fairly new 64 bit 2.4GHz Toshiba
>> Qosmio X870 laptop, Windows 8), but the X-Y co-ordinates do not update
>> when slowly and continuously dragging a shape.
>>
>> Also when the movement of the shapes stops for a moment, the X-Y
>> co-ordinates take about one quarter to one third of a second to update.
>> A good update speed would be about a tenth of a second.

I think this is due to their nature as being implemented based on 
execution slots, these have those uppdate times (e.g. when selecting an 
object and until the sidebar updates). This is generally by purpose and 
fixed (to avoid too much flicker when rapidly changing selection, e.g. 
using TAB), but maybe could be improved for the feedback in the footer, 
Also good for an enhancement task in bugzilla.

>>
>> RE:
>> 2c and 2d.
>> I am referring to the ability to select shapes AND to also select guides
>> THEN group the guides with the shapes.
>> This facility has always existed in Visio.
>> It has several important advantages:
>>
>> (i) When the shapes and selected guidelines are grouped, then the guides
>> are visually removed as unnecessary clutter from other object shapes on
>> the screen.
>> (ii) The grouping can be copied and then placed elsewhere upon the 
>> screen.
>> This is a common function.
>> Note that the guidelines will have different co-ordinates when the
>> grouping of shapes and guidelines is ungrouped.
>> (iii)
>> I have often done this just to copy a group of guidelines, so that after
>> positioning my copied group, I would then ungroup it and then delete the
>> shape object.
>> (iv) A very common action is to copy a shape with its guides and then
>> paste it onto a different page.

Also a good suggestion, the advantages are true. I have currently no 
idea how that could be done, but also a candidate for an enhancement 
task in bugzilla.

>>
>>
>> RE:
>> 2e and 2f.
>> Ah, thank you.
>> I had in fact set this up when I first started using Draw.
>> Now I do not know if it is the default setting, but Snap to Grid is best
>> selected rather than Visible grid.
>> My error was that I had it set to Visible grid.
>>
>> I use Snap to Grid with a 1 mm resolution with 10 subdivisions.
>> The reason for this is that whatever resolution that you select as
>> default, most of your drawing will use that setting.
>> In the case where you do want an off-grid point, you either use a UI
>> dialog box, set guidelines via a UI dialog box, or zoom into the view
>> you want.
>> When zooming, the visible grid is very handy as a reference, but not if
>> objects snap to it as changing the zoom level is a constant process
>> during drawing.
>>
>> Having said all this it would be great if direct access to this UI was
>> made possible via an additional icon it the View-Toolbars-Options bar.

You can configure that to every toolbar you like, just use the rightmost 
small button of the toolbar you want and add it in the dialog.

>>
>>
>>
>> Again, thanks for the great response.
>> Best regards,
>> Ian

Ian, thanks go back to you for these useful suggestions! If you have 
more, bring them on...
Could you possibly take the time and write enhancement tasks in our 
bugzilla system, please (https://issues.apache.org/ooo/) ?

Sincerely,
     Armin

>>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, 18 January 2014 3:10 AM, Andrea Pescetti
>> <pescetti@apache.org> wrote:
>> Forwarding Armin's answer (below) to Ian who is not subscribed. Andrea
>>
>> On 16/01/2014 Armin Le Grand wrote:
>>  > Hi Ian,
>>  >
>>  > thanks for your suggestions, much appreciated. Some are pretty
>>  > interesting. Comments inline...
>>  >
>>  > On 15.01.2014 20:27, Ian Symons wrote:
>>  >> Ian
>>  >> Symons
>>  >> ian.symons@yahoo.com.au <mailto:ian.symons@yahoo.com.au>
>>  >>
>>  >> 15
>>  >> Jan 2014
>>  >>
>>  >> dev@openoffice.apache.org <mailto:dev@openoffice.apache.org>
>>  >>
>>  >> RE:
>>  >> Suggested modifications to Open Office Draw
>>  >>
>>  >> Hello,
>>  >>
>>  >> The
>>  >> following suggestions generally have work around solutions, however
>>  >> performing such is a real pain when these are common actions.
>>  >>
>>  >> 1.
>>  >> Re
>>  >> the ruler on the left side, please orientate the numbers
>>  >> horizontally.
>>  >> The
>>  >> vertical numbering blends together and is unreadable.
>>  >
>>  > I have not seen it blend togethter, but I agree that these would 
>> be less
>>  > irritating when done horizontally.
>>  >
>>  >>
>>  >> 2.
>>  >> Re
>>  >> Snap Lines, Snap Points and Grid
>>  >> a.
>>  >> It
>>  >> is a common error that when positioning lines and shapes that the
>>  >> Snap Line or Snap Point is accidentally moved slightly.
>>  >> This
>>  >> is often not noticed immediately.
>>  >> Please
>>  >> provide an option to lock these Snaps into their set position.
>>  >
>>  > Doy you talk about
>>  > - objects that get placed or
>>  > - objects which help positioning (HelpLines, Grid, edges of existing
>>  > objects, ...)
>>  > here? If you have cases where there is a misplacement in snapping,
>>  > please provide a reproducable example, this would be an error. Please
>>  > note that snapping can be influenced while in action by pressing
>>  > qualifiers (shift, ctrl, tab) and by changing snap features (see
>>  > view/toolbars/options in draw).
>>  > Note that you can create helplines with start to drag on the rulers,
>>  > they even have an UI for setting them to precise positions.
>>  >
>>  >>
>>  >> b.
>>  >> It
>>  >> would also be nice when dragging such Snaps that the X-Y 
>> co-ordinates
>>  >> are displayed during the dragging,
>>  >
>>  > This is in the last line of the app at the left; a text and 
>> measurements
>>  > dependent of the type of action is displayed.
>>  > The idea to keep this after MouseUp for a defined time is nice,
>>  > especially since the reason is very good.
>>  >> and displayed for say 1 second
>>  >> after the mouse button is released.
>>  >> It
>>  >> provides confirmation to the user that the setting was not altered
>>  >> upon releasing the mouse button.
>>  >>
>>  >> c.
>>  >> It
>>  >> would be very good if the Snaps could be grouped with an object and:
>>  >
>>  > I do not understand if "Snaps" are the graphic objects or snap helper
>>  > pobjects; of course graphic objects can be grouped.
>>  >
>>  >>
>>  >> d.
>>  >> that
>>  >> upon copying and pasting onto another page that those Snaps are also
>>  >> retained (the position would be relative to where you placed the
>>  >> group on the page).
>>  >
>>  > Also not clear. The grid on the destinatopnmay be defined 
>> dofferent, do
>>  > you want that to be changed when pasting?
>>  >
>>  >>
>>  >> e.
>>  >> I
>>  >> do not know if there is already a way to do this, but it would be a
>>  >> big help if when dragging Snaps that they would snap to the selected
>>  >> grid.
>>  >
>>  > They do depending on the settings
>>  >
>>  >>
>>  >> f.
>>  >> And
>>  >> I do not see any way to specify the grid divisions.
>>  >> Again,
>>  >> this would be a help.
>>  >
>>  > See tools/options/draw/grid
>>  >>
>>  >> 3.
>>  >> Please
>>  >> provide a line circular arc tool that lets you:
>>  >> a. Specify the origin
>>  >> (point of rotation)
>>  >> b. Specify the radius
>>  >> c. Specify the arc
>>  >> begin angle
>>  >> d. Specify the arc end
>>  >> angle
>>  >> e. Allows an option to
>>  >> close the curve at the origin to create a segment
>>  >
>>  > In the drawing toolbar, use the rightmost dropdown from the toolbar
>>  > itself, choose customize. Use "add", Seelct "drawing" left, add 
>> what you
>>  > need. Best is to add "Ellipse", there are two, use the general one 
>> which
>>  > adds another drop-down toolbox to the menu.
>>  >
>>  >>
>>  >> 4.
>>  >> Please
>>  >> provide a line arc tool that lets you click on a line and convert it
>>  >> to a circular arc – the point would appear at the centre of the
>>  >> line and be dragged at a normal to the line
>>  >> So
>>  >> instead of Modify – To Curve you would also have Modify – To
>>  >> Circular Curve
>>  >
>>  > You should be able to do that using the Points mode (see icon or 
>> press
>>  > F8 in draw/impress) and using the bezier stuff.
>>  >>
>>  >> 5.
>>  >> Please
>>  >> provide an option to allow a line to be specified in two ways, shown
>>  >> on the one dialog box
>>  >> a. Origin, length and
>>  >> angle
>>  >> b. Begin point and end
>>  >> point
>>  >
>>  > This is missing, only pos/size is available for the object, so if 
>> it's a
>>  > line you can define the start/end point exactly.
>>  >
>>  >>
>>  >> 6.
>>  >> It
>>  >> is a real major pain that intersecting lines cannot be selected and
>>  >> fragmented at their intersecting point(s).
>>  >> Please
>>  >> fix this.
>>  >
>>  > Not possible with lines; would need to constuct filled objects 
>> including
>>  > the lines, using substract and extract the results.
>>  > Good suggestion to offer that with lines directly.
>>  >
>>  >> 7.
>>  >> Please
>>  >> make it easy to add onto a line by clicking onto a line, 
>> selecting an
>>  >> end point, then selecting a line tool (line, arc, polygon) and then
>>  >> just use that line tool to extend the original line.
>>  >
>>  > You can add/remove/edit points using the edit points toolbar
>>  >>
>>  >> 8.
>>  >> Lastly,
>>  >> I know this is not intended to be a 3D Cad program.
>>  >> But
>>  >> a few features would help.
>>  >> a. Have the ability to
>>  >> group several shapes before rotation.
>>  >
>>  > This is possible, group or just multi-select what you need
>>  >
>>  >> b. When the 3D view
>>  >> comes up, have buttons to select the front, top, bottom and side
>>  >> views (a total of 6 views).
>>  >> c. This is a big one –
>>  >> some ability to edit 3D shapes
>>  >
>>  > Yes, I would love to have 3D editing UI and capabilities. Help is 
>> needed
>>  > here, as a start we would need someone with UI experience who makes
>>  > suggestions. We would need some time and ressourecs for 
>> implementation.
>>  > I would support this, but can not promise time for this.
>>  >
>>  > BTW: you have seen the 3D effects dialog in the context menu of 3D
>>  > scenes, have you?
>>  > And I hope you know that in AOO you can enter/leave 3D svened as 
>> you can
>>  > with 2d Groups, so quite some editing is possible in 3D already,
>>  > especially when you switch the view to non-perspective first (in the
>>  > dialog again).
>>  >
>
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