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From Rob Weir <>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] [PMC] Proposed PMC List
Date Tue, 25 Sep 2012 12:37:55 GMT
On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 7:43 AM, J├╝rgen Schmidt <> wrote:
> On 9/25/12 1:10 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>> On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Ross Gardler
>> <> wrote:
>>> On 25 September 2012 11:22, Rob Weir <> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 3:40 AM, Ian Lynch <> wrote:
>>>>> On 25 September 2012 06:15, imacat <>
>>>>>>     I feel honored to be listed.  I would like to help PMC if there
is a
>>>>>> chance.
>>>>>>     In any case, I suggest at least one female should be included
in the
>>>>>> PMC, to encourage the contribution of females in the community and
>>>>>> diverse voices in PMC.  It is very important to encourage more and
>>>>>> female contributors to join the community, and make them feel that
>>>>>> OpenOffice is theirs', not of some male geeks.
>>>>> +1 broad representation is important.
>>>> IMHO this is a bad idea and if we go down this route it demonstrates
>>>> that we do not understand The Apache Way.
>>> I don't think the idea of actively seeking broad representation is
>>> necessarily counter to the Apache Way. It depends on exactly how that
>>> representation is achieved.
>> Perhaps you missed my last paragraph where I talked specifically about
>> seeking broad participation?
>> The issue is not diversity.  In fact Roy has stated quite bluntly that
>> diversity in itself is not an issue with graduation.  The issue is
>> thinking of the PMC as a representative body, where participants
>> "represent" some finer grained constituency and where the composition
>> of the PMC is optimized to someone's view of what a proper
>> distribution is, rather then on merit.  If it is wrong for someone to
>> claim to "represent IBM" then it is equally wrong for someone to claim
>> to "represent Asian women".  We participate as individuals.
>> IMHO we should be hearing the word "representation" a lot less when
>> describing the PMC.  It *is not* a representative body.  Individuals
>> participate based on their own merit, not as representatives of some
>> other group of interest.  We underestimate how radically different a
>> meritocracy is if we do not grok this distinction.
>> Or maybe you and Ian are using the word "representation" in some loose way?
>> To note: the legacy project was representative, and
>> some may be reverting to that mental model, of governance that had
>> fixed set aside seats for specific representation, e.g., one person
>> from the Calc project, one person from the NCL, one seat set aside for
>> Sun, etc.
>>>> The PMC *is not* representative. The PMC is inclusive of *all that
>>>> show merit* for the things that the PMC is responsible for.  To have a
>>>> PMC based on representation suggests that members are included for
>>>> things other than merit, or that other potential members are excluded
>>>> based on representation concerns regardless of their demonstrated
>>>> merit.  Both are wrong.
>>> I agree both are wrong.
>>> On the other hand I really hope that Imacat and others seek to address
>>> the issue of
>>> inclusion of all. Such work is, in itself, worthy of merit yet is
>>> often not recognised as such in software projects like those here in
>>> the ASF.
>> Inclusion != a representative PMC.  Inclusion is about recruitment and
>> ensuring that all merit is recognized.  It is not about quotas.
> I believe that we are all on the same track here more or less and I hope
> that we don't destroy this ongoing discussion on a PMC roster with too
> much nit-picking.

Thanks for the reminder.  I've said all I wanted to say on this topic.
 I'm done.

Onward and upward!


> The OpenOffice community had always a broader community and we welcome
> anybody as community member, as committer or as PMC member over time. We
> are open in all directions and the most important thing is that we drive
> things forward and don't stand idle.
> In the end we are mainly a software project. No software product means
> no project, no community, no committers, no PMC. And we are trying to
> address everything related to our project.
> So please let us continue to work and finish the things that are
> necessary to move forward. And any effort to grow in whatever direction
> is welcome. Simply start doing it and ideally talk and report about it
> that others have the chance to recognize it. I am a software developer,
> believe that I can motivate people in a community, can spread my
> knowledge about certain things but I am not a clairvoyant (as many
> others as well). So visibility of what you are doing is somewhat
> necessary to get recognition.
> Juergen

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