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From "Dennis E. Hamilton" <>
Subject RE: [FONTS] Embedding in ODF -- Existing Provisions
Date Mon, 19 Dec 2011 21:53:43 GMT
I should point out that the definitions of the font-related <svg:*> elements 
are tied to sections of the SVG specification (although the "svg:" prefix is 
not bound to the SVG namespace).  In addition, the resolution of font names to 
available font definitions is tied to CSS in ODF 1.2 Part 1 section 16.21 on 

So there is more involved to dance with in developing a road map that toward 
reliable font embedding and presentation fidelity.

Recent events that may support the enrichment of capability in this respect is 
the recent work by Armin Le Grand on integration of a new SVG implementation 
and the proposal, just posted today, on Adobe Flex becoming Apache Flex 
(incubating): <>.  There is a 
connection with font embedding there too.

[I haven't taken my eye off this topic, just distracted by more-recent issues 
around dictionaries and some QA on installer experience.]

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis E. Hamilton []
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 15:03
Cc: 'Gianluca Turconi'; 'Bart Hanssens '
Subject: RE: [FONTS] Embedding in ODF -- Existing Provisions

Here is the *technical* opening for font embedding in the ODF specifications.

In ODF 1.2 CS01 Part 1, sections 19.910.29 <svg:definition-src> xhtml:href 
attribute and  19.910.30 <svg:font-face-uri> xhtml:href attribute.  These can 
be relative references to internal parts of the package, of course.  That is 
how embedding can be done.  MIME types are needed (in META-INF/manifest.xml) 
for the  referenced parts.  The MIME type is what discriminate what kind of 
font-material is there.

Element <svg:font-face-uri> (15.24) is a none-or-more alternative child of 

Element <svg:font-face-src> (16.22) is an optional child of <style:font-face>.

Element <svg:definition-src> (16.25) is an optional child of 

The gold is 16.21 <style:font-face>.  This only appears as a child of 
<office:font-face-decls> (section 13.4).

This structure has existed since ODF 1.0, so it already appears in ISO/IEC IS 
26300:2006, in ODF 1.1, the forthcoming IS 26300 alignment with ODF 1.1, and 
now ODF 1.2.

This deals with the technical prospect for embedding.  The use cases, 
implementation notes, and above all the means for choosing embeddings, 
honoring licenses, etc., require a roadmap of progressive improvements.  And 
there is already here the least that could possibly work and can be used for 
some trials and resiliency testing with existing ODF consumers.

 - Dennis

PS: It was considered that a special kind of xlink:href could be used to 
directly embed font data in the single-XML document case.  A better, 
less-dangerous approach would be to allow an <office:binary-data> element as 
an alternative child in those places where an xlink:href is an option.  There 
would need to be another way to know the MIME type and it is probably time to 
add some attributes to the <office:binary-data> element to facilitate that. 
This would require down-the-road, ODF 1.3+ work.

-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis E. Hamilton []
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 17:03
Cc: 'Gianluca Turconi'; 'Bart Hanssens '
Subject: RE: [FONTS] Embedding in ODF (was RE: old colored vs new monochrome 

[Fixed the name of the thread]

I'm also calendar challenged.  The OIC TC teleconference is on 2011-12-14 
(not -13) at 1430 UTC.

People known to this list who participate on the OIC TC include Rob Weir, 
Svante Schubert, Don Harbison, Louis Suarez-Potts, and Andrew Rist.

There are even more familiar faces on the ODF TC, which has its last 2011 call 
on 12-19.

I recall from list exchanges about the embedded font case that there is a 
simple addition to the current provision that would allow embedding in even 
the single-XML version of ODF documents.  That would also be a superior way to 
embed fonts that should not be easily extracted from ODF packages.  Although 
that would be more likely for ODF 1.3, it might be worked into a draft before 
that and also be available for experimental use as an ODF 1.2 extension.

Enough.  First, I need to go verify that the sample and make sure that it 
doesn't use anything not already provided for in ODF.

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis E. Hamilton []
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 10:47
Cc: 'Gianluca Turconi'; Bart Hanssens ; 'Jos van den Oever'
Subject: [FONTS] Inclusion in ODF (was RE: old colored vs new monochrome 

A short time before the most-recent ODF Plugfest, Jos van den Oever 
demonstrated that ODF already has a means by which fonts can be embedded in 
the ODF document.  (I will dig up appropriate links when I am more awake.)

So, in fact, a *technical* solution seems to exist.  (Most of the debates 
about font embedding that I have been party to are around the legal and 
licensing niceties and avoiding becoming a contributory infringer by not 
handling this well. This is not entirely unlike issues around bundling of 
extensions that have license limitations [;<)

Staying on the technical side of the issue, the following is now known:

 1. Fonts can be embedded in ODF documents, using existing and long-present 
provisions of the ODF specification.  [There was some confusion about using 
CSS and XLink provisions but, as I recall, it is actually very simple and does 
not require any extension to the format or schema.  I will have to 
double-check that.)

There is now need for the following:

 2. Some (more) proof-of-concept sample documents that demonstrate such 
embedding need to be collected as test vehicles.  [Any solution applies to all 
ODF formats - text, spreadsheet, presentation, ... - that have a font section 
and definable styles in the format.]

 3. It needs to be determined what happens with ODF consumers when such 
unexpected documents are encountered.

 4. There needs to be some staging among ODF producers to support embedding in 
implementations (LO, AOO, Microsoft Office), etc.  There also needs to be 
upgrading of conversion software so that font embeddings can now be ported 
between formats that support them (and will make very many people very happy). 
Consumers need to be upgraded at the same time or even ahead of producers. 
There is also a concern for what happens when a down-level release encounters 
one of these ODF files, of course.

security analysis is also needed because font injection is an exploit path and 
there have been past vulnerabilities around fonts.)

 6. The next ODF Plugfest is scheduled for April in Brussels.  Now is a great 
time for moving proof-of-concept/prototype/finished/collaborative work forward 
for introduction and presentation on the agenda of that event.  The OASIS ODF 
Interoperability and Conformance TC has some resources (even an SVN for sample 
documents and test cases) and the Plugfest mailing list can be a valuable 
neutral forum.  (The last TC call of 2011 is tomorrow, 12-13, and this will 
definitely be discussed.)

 7. With regard to pro-active support and the interfaces necessary to control 
embedding, embedded-font usage, and when and how embedded fonts can be 
extracted and/or repurposed in other documents, there may need to be some 
technical support, and that will be a longer discussion that may require 
extended staging to be fully functional.  (It is in the nature of the ODF 
format that direct extraction of fonts embedded in the current structure is 
trivial for any teen-age hacker, with no cooperation of an ODF consumer 
required.)  Down the road, there may need to be more-specific consideration of 
font embedding in the ODF Specification beyond the current, simple hook.

 8. I suspect that there are cases that can be handled without too much 
difficulty and useful embedding can happen soon, with enrichment of the 
feature and functionality over time.

 - Dennis E. Hamilton
   tools for document interoperability,  <>  gsm: +1-206-779-9430  @orcmid

-----Original Message-----
From: Gianluca Turconi []
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 09:13
Subject: Re: old colored vs new monochrome icons

[ ... ]

P.S. to whom is interested, the most wanted future by the usenet
Italian community (IMO) is font inclusion in OO Writer documents. It
caused flame wars, endless legal discussions starting
from Agfa vs. Adobe trial and a huge addition to my kill file. :-P
Lettura gratuita o acquisto di libri e racconti di fantascienza,
fantasy, horror, noir, narrativa fantastica e tradizionale:

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