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From Shane Curcuru <>
Subject Re: Proposal: Forum integration
Date Tue, 06 Sep 2011 22:35:47 GMT
On 9/6/2011 5:34 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:
> On Sep 6, 2011, at 1:54 PM, drew wrote:
>> On Tue, 2011-09-06 at 15:25 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
>>> 2) Rules shall allow any PPMC member or Mentor to become a
>>> moderator or admin on request
>> I would not agree to that - any PPMC member wanting to come do the
>> work of answering questions, over a period of time, is free to do
>> so just as anyone else is free to do.
> I think a rule of the Foundation is that all Members can have access
> to whatever Apache resource they desire.
> You'll have to accept Apache Members.
> Consider the slight possibility that a PPMC member who gets involved
> behaves badly and disrespectfully in the forum management. There is
> recourse - ooo-private. Any PPMC member has responsibility to the
> project and the ASF. Assuming that this proposal passes the Site and
> Forum Admins will be PPMC members and have such recourse available.
> You ought to allow any PPMC member to perform any oversight they deem
> necessary within the rules and culture of the admins. It is a
> responsibility of a (P)PMC to perform oversight. Any of us should be
> able to check on others.

Yes, and here is where it's important to be very clear what the intent 
of Apache rules are, and how they'd be applied in the case of exactly 
how forums work.

- As a membership-based organization (i.e. the ASF Members are 
shareholders in the legal corporation), ASF policy is to allow Members 
the right to inspect virtually all acts of our projects.  This means 
that any Member could request read-only access to everything in the 
Apache OOo forums, including logs, etc.

- As a non-profit, Apache requires that it's (P)PMCs have oversight over 
the actions of their projects.  Part of this is the same as the above: 
PMC members presumably could request read-only access to any services 
associated with their project: thus Apache OOo PPMC members could get 
read-only access to all forums, but other PMC's members would not 
necessarily get access.

The rest of oversight is ensuring the (P)PMC has the ability to correct 
problems that occur within the project.  Most often, this will be either 
some problematic code in a product, content on a website, or a seriously 
disruptive member of the community.  In those cases, the (P)PMC could 
insist on a change or deletion of content in the forum, or a banning or 
expulsion of a forum member (including, potentially, a moderator).

Note that all of the above are either read-only abilities, or the (P)PMC 
taking an official action to correct a specific problem.

- Merit is *not* necessarily transferable between projects.  Just 
because Jane Doe, super coder from the Apache Tomcat project, wants to 
commit code to Apache OOo, there's no expectation that she will get 
commit rights here.  Likewise, within some projects, people are only 
granted write access to specific parts of a SVN tree or only to the 
documentation, not the code.

Thus while (P)PMC members could request admin-(or whatever) level access 
to the forums, I would expect this to be very rare, and it would be 
appropriate to remind those individuals to respect how the forums work, 
and ask them what their plans are.  Likewise, ASF Members or other 
committers would need to show merit within the forums to gain moderator 
or admin status; they would *not* be able to just request it.

Merit is not transferable partly because part of someone's merit is 
their ability to work productively within a specific community.  Just 
because someone's a wizard Subversion committer [1] does not mean 
they'll fit in well here, or on Tomcat or Hadoop.

As a side note, while merit is not normally transferable, it normally 
doesn't expire.  Just because someone goes away for a long while does 
not automatically mean they lose their committer bit.  They might have 
just been spending an extended vacation on a Greek island...  8-)

- Shane

[1] Although I have to say the Subversion project has one of the much 
more advanced and well-oiled project governance schemes around!

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