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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:13:41 +0400
Message-ID: 
 <CADN_yeLzthL3Nvhkzt+S91daMvAFLoknneNmfMJ4Sq7jxu4ULQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: AEC in the new release
From: Artyom Horuzhenko <akhor666@gmail.com>
To: dev@openmeetings.apache.org
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Hello Irina,

I have an idea how to test sound delays. Anybody runs OM localy and enter
the room twice: in the first tab audio is enabled, in the second is
disabled. Than tester begins speaking to his microphone and listen himself
and determines delay between speaking and listening time.


2013/4/26 Irina Arkhipets <irina.arkhipets@gmail.com>

> Hi All,
>
> Artyom just made some changes and for now AEC parameters can be
> configurable via config.xml.
>
> So we are planning to have some testing on demo.dataved.ru on the nearest
> Monday (April, 29).
>
> Approximate time is 15:00 NSK (GMT +7), and still we can move the time if
> it's inconvenient.
>
> If somebody from the list would like to participate - you are welcome, ju=
st
> let me know :).
>
> The testing scenario would be to enter the room and do the same things wi=
th
> the different settings:
>
>    -
>
>    No echo cancellation (echoPath=3D0) and all the other settings are def=
ault
>    -
>
>    Echo path length is 128 ms and all the other settings are default
>    -
>
>    Echo path length is 256 ms and all the other settings are default
>    -
>
>    Camera codec is H264 (codecType=3D264) and all the other settings are
>    default
>    -
>
>    Camera codec is H263 and all the other settings are default
>
> There are several other settings which can affect the sound quality,
> however I would suggest try only AEC and codec for now as these are new
> features implemented in the new release.
>
> In the room, users should check the following things:
>
>    -
>
>    Speak and check if there is echo or not
>    -
>
>    Measure approximate delay (if any) between the video and sound. For
>    example, somebody count to 10 and lifts his fingers, others look for t=
he
>    video and sound synchronization.
>
> To check the echo better, we need several attendees with notebooks - my
> experience shows that echo problems appears with notebooks very often.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Any ideas are welcomed!
>
> Best regards,
>
> Irina.
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 3:53 PM, seba.wagner@gmail.com <
> seba.wagner@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > IMHO having yet another checkbox where the user can decide to enable or
> > disable AEC can be only an additional thing on top of a general system
> wide
> > configuration.
> >
> > The problem with this is for example that the average user does not eve=
n
> > know what AEC means.
> > Or what is the difference between hardware echo cancellation and softwa=
re
> > echo cancellation ?!
> > So what would be the benefit for him in having a checkbox tagged "enabl=
ed
> > AEC" ?
> >
> > One of the concerns people have against OpenMeetings is its complexity.
> > They just want to conference and not bother around with a lot of option=
s.
> >
> > I would also not disable the AEC feature by default as long as there is
> no
> > concrete use-case where AEC (or enhancedMicro mode) leads to an issue.
> >
> > Same for h264. There was a discussion that included h264 a couple of
> weeks
> > ago:
> > http://markmail.org/message/fctg6eo5qf5hhcaa
> >
> > The consens was:
> >  - The amount of CPU that our clients needed more was not measurable.
> >  - There is no concrete use case where enabling or disabling h264 would
> > improve anything
> > I agree that having a config for the Video codec, same as the Microphon=
e
> > Mode, would be nice.
> > But changing any defaults now back and forth without concrete use cases
> and
> > some kind of test plan does not make a lot of sense to me.
> >
> > So what I would propose is:
> >  - Make Microphone and VideoCodec configurable and documentate this
> >  - Set up a concrete test plan and communicate that through our mailing
> > lists.
> > Based on the feedback we might then discuss changing some defaults.
> >
> > Sebastian
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2013/4/23 Maxim Solodovnik <solomax666@gmail.com>
> >
> > > My previous comment was regarding video codec
> > > Auto selecting h264 based on SIP setting is not a good idea IMHO
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 3:17 PM, Artyom Horuzhenko <akhor666@gmail.co=
m
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > Usually (for example, in Linphone) echo cancellation option is
> > available
> > > > for every user. In my opinion it would be better to allow users to
> > decide
> > > > use echo cancellation or not because its efficiency depends on
> > hardware.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2013/4/23 Maxim Solodovnik <solomax666@gmail.com>
> > > >
> > > > > Maybe it is better to make it configurable somehow? config.xml is
> > good
> > > > > candidate IMHO
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 2:56 PM, Artyom Horuzhenko <
> > akhor666@gmail.com
> > > > > >wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I suppose using h264 would be necessary only in SIP rooms, for
> all
> > > > other
> > > > > > rooms - codec which used before (h263?). It avoids any
> suspections
> > > > about
> > > > > > h264 issues and increses performance. I'm also going to impleme=
nt
> > > > > switching
> > > > > > microphone mode in the audio/video test dialog. Is there anybod=
y
> > who
> > > > > > disagree with this idea?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2013/4/23 Alexei Fedotov <alexei.fedotov@gmail.com>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > That would be great!
> > > > > > > On Apr 23, 2013 5:36 AM, "Maxim Solodovnik" <
> > solomax666@gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > @Alexei this definitely can be done in realtime, BUT ... :)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The setting affects Working microphone so it is impossible =
to
> > > > ON/OFF
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > > while speaking :(
> > > > > > > > The only option I can see is to add dropdown control to
> > > > > testSetupDialog
> > > > > > > > (the one with choose camera and test recording). So we can
> have
> > > > > > something
> > > > > > > > like:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 1) default system setting (can be moved to
> Admin->configuration
> > > to
> > > > > > avoid
> > > > > > > > rewriting it after each upgrade)
> > > > > > > > 2) per user setting stored in LocalData (like rememberLogin
> > > default
> > > > > > > cam/mic
> > > > > > > > etc.)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > using above scheme user can change the setting while enteri=
ng
> > the
> > > > > room
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > "re-sync" audio/video
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 3:24 AM, Joseph Karwat <
> > > > jkarwat@jellnet.com>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > We tested AEC out-of-the-box. We just installed and ran a
> > > meeting
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > OM2.1- Litle or no echo.  We then, using the exact same
> > > > > > configuration,
> > > > > > > > > logged in to an OM2.0 server and ran a meeting. We
> > experienced
> > > > > > > > substantial
> > > > > > > > > echo. We were both running a PC with Flash echo
> cancellation
> > on
> > > > but
> > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > hardware echo cancelation.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Also for OM2.1 Where do I set the buffer lenghth?  Are
> there
> > > any
> > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > parameters/options I  should know about?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Joseph Karwat | CEO | 415-462-0263 | JellVideo |
> > > www.jellnet.com|
> > > > > > > > > JELL NETWORKS, INC.
> > > > > > > > > Enterprise Video Collaboration Solutions
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Click Here to Register for your JellVideo Collaboration
> > Account
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > From: Alexei Fedotov [mailto:alexei.fedotov@gmail.com]
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 12:49 PM
> > > > > > > > > To: dev@openmeetings.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: AEC in the new release
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Joseph, which devices show improvement? Which buffer leng=
th
> > did
> > > > you
> > > > > > > use?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I like the suggestion - Maxim, how is it possible to
> > configure
> > > > AEC
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > realtime?
> > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 2013 11:30 PM, "Joseph Karwat" <
> > jkarwat@jellnet.com
> > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > We have a test OM2.1 server installed at AWS running
> > Unbuntu
> > > > > 12.04.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > We tested AEC this morning for the first time and it di=
d
> > seem
> > > > to
> > > > > > make
> > > > > > > > > > the audio work very well.  Little if no echo.  We still
> > need
> > > to
> > > > > > test
> > > > > > > > > > under a wide range of scenarios, but we are encouraged =
by
> > the
> > > > > > > > > > performance this morning.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If you do make it a configurable setting. It should be =
an
> > > > option
> > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > > setting up the room or allow the individual user to
> > > > enable/disabe
> > > > > > AEC
> > > > > > > > > > when in a conference room.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Making it a system-wide configuration option will delay
> > > testing
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > adoption.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > We will be conducting further testing of AEC over the
> next
> > > few
> > > > > days
> > > > > > > > > > and will report back with our findings.  Anyone wishing
> to
> > > > > > > participate
> > > > > > > > > > in our AEC testing is encouraged to contact me.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Joseph Karwat |415-462-0263 | JellVideo |
> www.jellnet.com|
> > > > JELL
> > > > > > > > > > NETWORKS, INC.
> > > > > > > > > > Enterprise Video Collaboration Solutions
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Click Here to Register for your JellVideo Collaboration
> > > Account
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > > From: Alexei Fedotov [mailto:alexei.fedotov@gmail.com]
> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 12:49 AM
> > > > > > > > > > To: dev; user@openmeetings.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: AEC in the new release
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > There are no answers. My point here is that we can be
> 100%
> > > sure
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > today AEC does not work as expected, and provides
> > distinctive
> > > > and
> > > > > > > high
> > > > > > > > > > quality echo in 100% of situations when users use
> separate
> > > > > dynamic
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > microphone systems.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The new thing is AEC mechanism sometimes meddles with
> > > hardware
> > > > > echo
> > > > > > > > > > cancellation support providing temporary sound outages.
> It
> > > also
> > > > > > > > > > provides visible de-synchronization between sound and
> video
> > > > > > channels.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If someone has a different experience, please, speak up=
.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > So I have two ideas to speak of. 1. Disable AEC in
> > > openmeetings
> > > > > > > > > > releases by default. It takes a simple configuration
> change
> > > to
> > > > > > enable
> > > > > > > > > > it. 2. Later understand when AEC really works, and fix
> it.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Folks, please again let me know if you disagree and hav=
e
> > > > > beneficial
> > > > > > > > > > AEC experience.
> > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > With best regards / =D3 =CE=C1=C9=CC=D5=DE=DB=C9=CD=C9 =
=D0=CF=D6=C5=CC=C1=CE=C9=D1=CD=C9, Alexei
> > Fedotov
> > > /
> > > > > > > =E1=CC=C5=CB=D3=C5=CA
> > > > > > > > > > =E6=C5=C4=CF=D4=CF=D7, http://dataved.ru/
> > > > > > > > > > +7 916 562 8095
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:11 PM, Alexei Fedotov
> > > > > > > > > > <alexei.fedotov@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > Hello guys,
> > > > > > > > > > > How AEC (acoustic echo cancellation) works for you in
> the
> > > new
> > > > > > > > release?
> > > > > > > > > > > Can anyone share usage experience?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > With best regards / =D3 =CE=C1=C9=CC=D5=DE=DB=C9=CD=
=C9 =D0=CF=D6=C5=CC=C1=CE=C9=D1=CD=C9, Alexei
> > > Fedotov
> > > > /
> > > > > > > > > > > =E1=CC=C5=CB=D3=C5=CA =E6=C5=C4=CF=D4=CF=D7, http://d=
ataved.ru/
> > > > > > > > > > > +7 916 562 8095
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > WBR
> > > > > > > > Maxim aka solomax
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > WBR
> > > > > Maxim aka solomax
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > WBR
> > > Maxim aka solomax
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sebastian Wagner
> > https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock
> > http://www.webbase-design.de
> > http://www.wagner-sebastian.com
> > seba.wagner@gmail.com
> >
>

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