Return-Path: X-Original-To: apmail-openmeetings-dev-archive@www.apache.org Delivered-To: apmail-openmeetings-dev-archive@www.apache.org Received: from mail.apache.org (hermes.apache.org [140.211.11.3]) by minotaur.apache.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 95811103D6 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 14:01:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 92504 invoked by uid 500); 29 Apr 2013 14:01:41 -0000 Delivered-To: apmail-openmeetings-dev-archive@openmeetings.apache.org Received: (qmail 92284 invoked by uid 500); 29 Apr 2013 14:01:36 -0000 Mailing-List: contact dev-help@openmeetings.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: dev@openmeetings.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list dev@openmeetings.apache.org Received: (qmail 92196 invoked by uid 99); 29 Apr 2013 14:01:35 -0000 Received: from athena.apache.org (HELO athena.apache.org) (140.211.11.136) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 14:01:35 +0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.2 required=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE,SPF_PASS X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (athena.apache.org: local policy) Received: from [212.17.10.125] (HELO ml.unipro.ru) (212.17.10.125) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 14:01:29 +0000 Received: from [192.168.72.114] by ml.unipro.ru with esmtp (Exim 4.80.1 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1UWodd-0003gv-3i for dev@openmeetings.apache.org; Mon, 29 Apr 2013 21:01:05 +0700 Message-ID: <517E7D23.5020000@unipro.ru> Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 21:01:07 +0700 From: Irina Arkhipets User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dev@openmeetings.apache.org Subject: Re: AEC in the new release References: <071501ce3f8f$cf3b3440$6db19cc0$@com> <076001ce3f97$58621e80$09265b80$@com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040306060207080009000101" X-Virus-Checked: Checked by ClamAV on apache.org --------------040306060207080009000101 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi All, First of all, thank you for your advices and sorry for so long report :) We have made a first test with the different parameters. I would like to share the results. Briefly: * Sound quality with echoPath=0 is generally better than for echoPath=128 and 256 (we lost sound of one attendee sometime) * Echo is actually suppressed with echoPath 128/256 whereas it is noticeable with echoPath = 0 on the same configuration (using notebook on the client side) * Delay between the video and sound is less for echoPath = 0 * Delay between the video and sound is less for H263 So the conclusions are: * For the conference where some users with notebooks echoPath = 128 is more preferrable; * For the conference where notebooks are not used echoPath = 0 is more preferrable; * For the conferences with many attendees H263 is more preferrable because it seems like that H264 usage increases the delay. *Detailed report about the testing:* Date: 29-April-2013 Where: demo.dataved.ru Participants: * Artyom Horuzhenko (Linux desktop) * Denis Kandrov (Linux Desktop) * Irina Arkhipets (Windows desktop) * Yulia Algaer (Windows notebook) * SIP integration was turned on in the room, but nobody called there during the testing. SIP transport presented in the user list. Tested parameters: echoSuppression (true/false), echoPath (0/128/256), codecType (264/263) _*Results:*_ *Test 1.* echoPath=128, echoSuppression=true, video codec=264 (These are default values in the system) * No echo during all the test; * Sound from Denis disappeared sometime; * Delay between the hand clapping and its sound is less than 1 second, but noticeable. *Test 2.* echoPath=0, echoSuppression=true, video codec=264 * Echo after Yulia (user with notebook) entered the room * Sound from Denis did not disappear all the time * No visible delay between the hand clapping and its sound *Test 3.* echoPath=256, echoSuppression=true, video codec=264 * No echo during all the test * Sound from Denis did not disappear all the time * Delay between the hand clapping and its sound is less than 1 second, but noticable * Sound quality is significantly worse than in the Test 1. * SIP-transport produced noticeable noise *Test 4.* echoPath=0, echoSuppression=false, video codec=264 * Echo after Yulia (user with notebook) entered the room * Strong "jungle" was hearable all the time, sound quality is significantly worse than in all the other tests. * Sound from Denis did not disappear all the time *Test 5.* echoPath=128, echoSuppression=false, video codec=264 * No echo * When Yulia (user with notebook) spoke, some "jungle" was hearable; * Delay between the hand clapping and its sound is less than 1 second, but noticeable *Test 6.* echoPath=128, echoSuppression=true, video codec=263 * No echo during all the test * Delay between the hand clapping and its sound is almost negligible * If I increased video size, quality is visible worse than with H264 under the same conditions Best regards, Irina. On 26.04.2013 18:04, Irina Arkhipets wrote: > Hi All, > > Artyom just made some changes and for now AEC parameters can be > configurable via config.xml. > > So we are planning to have some testing on demo.dataved.ru on the nearest > Monday (April, 29). > > Approximate time is 15:00 NSK (GMT +7), and still we can move the time if > it's inconvenient. > > If somebody from the list would like to participate - you are welcome, just > let me know :). > > The testing scenario would be to enter the room and do the same things with > the different settings: > > - > > No echo cancellation (echoPath=0) and all the other settings are default > - > > Echo path length is 128 ms and all the other settings are default > - > > Echo path length is 256 ms and all the other settings are default > - > > Camera codec is H264 (codecType=264) and all the other settings are > default > - > > Camera codec is H263 and all the other settings are default > > There are several other settings which can affect the sound quality, > however I would suggest try only AEC and codec for now as these are new > features implemented in the new release. > > In the room, users should check the following things: > > - > > Speak and check if there is echo or not > - > > Measure approximate delay (if any) between the video and sound. For > example, somebody count to 10 and lifts his fingers, others look for the > video and sound synchronization. > > To check the echo better, we need several attendees with notebooks - my > experience shows that echo problems appears with notebooks very often. > > What do you think? > > Any ideas are welcomed! > > Best regards, > > Irina. > > > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 3:53 PM, seba.wagner@gmail.com < > seba.wagner@gmail.com> wrote: > >> IMHO having yet another checkbox where the user can decide to enable or >> disable AEC can be only an additional thing on top of a general system wide >> configuration. >> >> The problem with this is for example that the average user does not even >> know what AEC means. >> Or what is the difference between hardware echo cancellation and software >> echo cancellation ?! >> So what would be the benefit for him in having a checkbox tagged "enabled >> AEC" ? >> >> One of the concerns people have against OpenMeetings is its complexity. >> They just want to conference and not bother around with a lot of options. >> >> I would also not disable the AEC feature by default as long as there is no >> concrete use-case where AEC (or enhancedMicro mode) leads to an issue. >> >> Same for h264. There was a discussion that included h264 a couple of weeks >> ago: >> http://markmail.org/message/fctg6eo5qf5hhcaa >> >> The consens was: >> - The amount of CPU that our clients needed more was not measurable. >> - There is no concrete use case where enabling or disabling h264 would >> improve anything >> I agree that having a config for the Video codec, same as the Microphone >> Mode, would be nice. >> But changing any defaults now back and forth without concrete use cases and >> some kind of test plan does not make a lot of sense to me. >> >> So what I would propose is: >> - Make Microphone and VideoCodec configurable and documentate this >> - Set up a concrete test plan and communicate that through our mailing >> lists. >> Based on the feedback we might then discuss changing some defaults. >> >> Sebastian >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 2013/4/23 Maxim Solodovnik >> >>> My previous comment was regarding video codec >>> Auto selecting h264 based on SIP setting is not a good idea IMHO >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 3:17 PM, Artyom Horuzhenko >>> wrote: >>>> Usually (for example, in Linphone) echo cancellation option is >> available >>>> for every user. In my opinion it would be better to allow users to >> decide >>>> use echo cancellation or not because its efficiency depends on >> hardware. >>>> >>>> 2013/4/23 Maxim Solodovnik >>>> >>>>> Maybe it is better to make it configurable somehow? config.xml is >> good >>>>> candidate IMHO >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 2:56 PM, Artyom Horuzhenko < >> akhor666@gmail.com >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Hello, >>>>>> >>>>>> I suppose using h264 would be necessary only in SIP rooms, for all >>>> other >>>>>> rooms - codec which used before (h263?). It avoids any suspections >>>> about >>>>>> h264 issues and increses performance. I'm also going to implement >>>>> switching >>>>>> microphone mode in the audio/video test dialog. Is there anybody >> who >>>>>> disagree with this idea? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2013/4/23 Alexei Fedotov >>>>>> >>>>>>> That would be great! >>>>>>> On Apr 23, 2013 5:36 AM, "Maxim Solodovnik" < >> solomax666@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> @Alexei this definitely can be done in realtime, BUT ... :) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The setting affects Working microphone so it is impossible to >>>> ON/OFF >>>>> it >>>>>>>> while speaking :( >>>>>>>> The only option I can see is to add dropdown control to >>>>> testSetupDialog >>>>>>>> (the one with choose camera and test recording). So we can have >>>>>> something >>>>>>>> like: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1) default system setting (can be moved to Admin->configuration >>> to >>>>>> avoid >>>>>>>> rewriting it after each upgrade) >>>>>>>> 2) per user setting stored in LocalData (like rememberLogin >>> default >>>>>>> cam/mic >>>>>>>> etc.) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> using above scheme user can change the setting while entering >> the >>>>> room >>>>>> or >>>>>>>> "re-sync" audio/video >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What do you think? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 3:24 AM, Joseph Karwat < >>>> jkarwat@jellnet.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We tested AEC out-of-the-box. We just installed and ran a >>> meeting >>>>> in >>>>>>>>> OM2.1- Litle or no echo. We then, using the exact same >>>>>> configuration, >>>>>>>>> logged in to an OM2.0 server and ran a meeting. We >> experienced >>>>>>>> substantial >>>>>>>>> echo. We were both running a PC with Flash echo cancellation >> on >>>> but >>>>>> no >>>>>>>>> hardware echo cancelation. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Also for OM2.1 Where do I set the buffer lenghth? Are there >>> any >>>>>> other >>>>>>>>> parameters/options I should know about? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joseph Karwat | CEO | 415-462-0263 | JellVideo | >>> www.jellnet.com| >>>>>>>>> JELL NETWORKS, INC. >>>>>>>>> Enterprise Video Collaboration Solutions >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Click Here to Register for your JellVideo Collaboration >> Account >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Alexei Fedotov [mailto:alexei.fedotov@gmail.com] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 12:49 PM >>>>>>>>> To: dev@openmeetings.apache.org >>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: AEC in the new release >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joseph, which devices show improvement? Which buffer length >> did >>>> you >>>>>>> use? >>>>>>>>> I like the suggestion - Maxim, how is it possible to >> configure >>>> AEC >>>>> in >>>>>>>>> realtime? >>>>>>>>> On Apr 22, 2013 11:30 PM, "Joseph Karwat" < >> jkarwat@jellnet.com >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> We have a test OM2.1 server installed at AWS running >> Unbuntu >>>>> 12.04. >>>>>>>>>> We tested AEC this morning for the first time and it did >> seem >>>> to >>>>>> make >>>>>>>>>> the audio work very well. Little if no echo. We still >> need >>> to >>>>>> test >>>>>>>>>> under a wide range of scenarios, but we are encouraged by >> the >>>>>>>>>> performance this morning. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If you do make it a configurable setting. It should be an >>>> option >>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>> setting up the room or allow the individual user to >>>> enable/disabe >>>>>> AEC >>>>>>>>>> when in a conference room. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Making it a system-wide configuration option will delay >>> testing >>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> adoption. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We will be conducting further testing of AEC over the next >>> few >>>>> days >>>>>>>>>> and will report back with our findings. Anyone wishing to >>>>>>> participate >>>>>>>>>> in our AEC testing is encouraged to contact me. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Joseph Karwat |415-462-0263 | JellVideo | www.jellnet.com| >>>> JELL >>>>>>>>>> NETWORKS, INC. >>>>>>>>>> Enterprise Video Collaboration Solutions >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Click Here to Register for your JellVideo Collaboration >>> Account >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: Alexei Fedotov [mailto:alexei.fedotov@gmail.com] >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 12:49 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: dev; user@openmeetings.apache.org >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: AEC in the new release >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There are no answers. My point here is that we can be 100% >>> sure >>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> today AEC does not work as expected, and provides >> distinctive >>>> and >>>>>>> high >>>>>>>>>> quality echo in 100% of situations when users use separate >>>>> dynamic >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> microphone systems. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The new thing is AEC mechanism sometimes meddles with >>> hardware >>>>> echo >>>>>>>>>> cancellation support providing temporary sound outages. It >>> also >>>>>>>>>> provides visible de-synchronization between sound and video >>>>>> channels. >>>>>>>>>> If someone has a different experience, please, speak up. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So I have two ideas to speak of. 1. Disable AEC in >>> openmeetings >>>>>>>>>> releases by default. It takes a simple configuration change >>> to >>>>>> enable >>>>>>>>>> it. 2. Later understand when AEC really works, and fix it. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Folks, please again let me know if you disagree and have >>>>> beneficial >>>>>>>>>> AEC experience. >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> With best regards / � ���������� �����������, Alexei >> Fedotov >>> / >>>>>>> ������� >>>>>>>>>> �������, http://dataved.ru/ >>>>>>>>>> +7 916 562 8095 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:11 PM, Alexei Fedotov >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Hello guys, >>>>>>>>>>> How AEC (acoustic echo cancellation) works for you in the >>> new >>>>>>>> release? >>>>>>>>>>> Can anyone share usage experience? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> With best regards / � ���������� �����������, Alexei >>> Fedotov >>>> / >>>>>>>>>>> ������� �������, http://dataved.ru/ >>>>>>>>>>> +7 916 562 8095 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> WBR >>>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> WBR >>>>> Maxim aka solomax >>>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> WBR >>> Maxim aka solomax >>> >> >> >> -- >> Sebastian Wagner >> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >> http://www.webbase-design.de >> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >> seba.wagner@gmail.com >> --------------040306060207080009000101--