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From Alexei Fedotov <alexei.fedo...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: SWF11 components performance/stability
Date Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:28:29 GMT
Irina, please, add the possible reason for flash crashes due to a driver, a
third party soft or a browser cache to the faq
14.03.2013 13:32 пользователь "Irina Arkhipets" <irina.arkhipets@gmail.com>
написал:

> Yes, and actually I hope it would help my client too :)
>
> Regarding the video acceleration - actually, I just saw crash reports
> similar with mine in Mozilla bug tracker, and the recommendation was to
> turn this off.
>
>  Regards,
> Irina.
>
> On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 4:24 PM, seba.wagner@gmail.com <
> seba.wagner@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hopefully the 26th tryout is no fail :)
>> Glad we could track this down to be an environment issue.
>>
>> It would be nice to know if the hardware acceleration has an effect on the
>> broadcasting (encoding) at all.
>> I am pretty sure it has an impact on viewing / decoding. But I am not so
>> sure for broadcasting/encoding video.
>>
>> Sebastian
>>
>>
>> 2013/3/14 Irina Arkhipets <irina.arkhipets@gmail.com>
>>
>> > Seems like it works for me.
>> >
>> > At least, after the ffdshow update I was able to enter/exit the room 25
>> > times without crash.
>> >
>> > I'll look for this a couple of days. And ask my client who claimed about
>> > the problem to do the same things and additionally try to turn the
>> hardware
>> > acceleration off.
>> >
>> > Thank you,
>> > Irina.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:28 PM, Irina Arkhipets
>> > <irina.arkhipets@gmail.com>wrote:
>> >
>> > > Sebastian,
>> > >
>> > > It seems like you are correct and this depends on configuration.
>> > >
>> > > I've received a reply from Mozilla about my bug:
>> > > ...
>> > > According to the previous stack trace, it's not a Firefox bug neither
>> a
>> > > Flash
>> > > one, but a FFDShow one. You are using version 1.1.3761.0 while the
>> > current
>> > > one
>> > > is 1.3.4500. Update FFDShow:
>> > > http://ffdshow-tryout.sourceforge.net/download.php
>> > > Then report back.
>> > > ...
>> > >
>> > > You can track this here:
>> > > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=850614
>> > >
>> > > Will try their suggestion and inform you about the result.
>> > >
>> > > Best regards,
>> > > Irina.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:03 PM, seba.wagner@gmail.com <
>> > > seba.wagner@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> After all this sounds a lot like an issue with the webcam,
>> microphone or
>> > >> driver.
>> > >>
>> > >> The moment when your are in the conference, in the device settings
>> and
>> > >> click on the button
>> > >> "start conference" what basically happens is that you set your
>> > audio/video
>> > >> settings and Flash access your webcam.
>> > >>
>> > >> So basically this is an environment issues. It could be also a
>> > combination
>> > >> of a Flash Player + certain device issues.
>> > >> I bet the same issue happens for those users if they use any other
>> Flash
>> > >> application that requires access to cam/mic.
>> > >>
>> > >> What kind of microphone and camera are you using ?
>> > >> Did you have maybe some driver that you can update or download for
>> those
>> > >> devices for your OS ?
>> > >>
>> > >> Sebastian
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> 2013/3/14 Maxim Solodovnik <solomax666@gmail.com>
>> > >>
>> > >> > @Alexei unfortunately this would not help since we have no useful
>> info
>> > >> > after such crash :(
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Alexei Fedotov <
>> > >> alexei.fedotov@gmail.com
>> > >> > >wrote:
>> > >> >
>> > >> > > @Maxim, how difficult is to add a button for debug which would
>> > >> start/quit
>> > >> > > a conference in a loop to make the bug simpler to reproduce?
>> > >> > > 14.03.2013 10:56 пользователь "Irina Arkhipets" <
>> > >> > irina.arkhipets@gmail.com>
>> > >> > > написал:
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > Hi Sebastian,
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> A). I use Win XP + FF 19.0 + flash 11.6.602.180. And Yulia have
>> the
>> > >> same
>> > >> > >> problems on W7 + GH + 11.6.602.171.
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> B). Crash happens when I am entering the room after I click
>> "Start
>> > >> > >> Conference" in the "Choose device" screen.
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> C). Plugin crashes in the following way: I get
>> > "plugin-container.exe"
>> > >> > >> application error window with the possibility to click OK to
>> > >> terminate
>> > >> > and
>> > >> > >> click CANCEL to debug. If I click OK I see a grey screen with
>> the
>> > >> "Adobe
>> > >> > >> Flash plugin crashed" message and the "Send report" button. I
>> need
>> > to
>> > >> > >> reload the page to continue work.
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> D). It seems like it's not possible to attach files when you
>> write
>> > to
>> > >> > >> mailing list, so I'll will send you a screen shot personally.
>> I've
>> > >> also
>> > >> > >> found a way to catch a report which is sent if I click the "Send
>> > >> report"
>> > >> > >> button - will send it to you too.
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> E). Nothing special in the server log and browser console
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> My additional notes:
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> - Crash is reproducible if I run FireFox in safe mode.
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> - Crash report reads: "Crash Reason
>> > >>  EXCEPTION_ACCESS_VIOLATION_WRITE".
>> > >> > I
>> > >> > >> read in Internet that it can happen because of some video driver
>> > >> > problems
>> > >> > >> if hardware acceleration is turmed on, however I've just turned
>> it
>> > >> off
>> > >> > >> without improving
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> - I've filed bug against Mozilla and send them some info and
>> crash
>> > >> > report
>> > >> > >> -
>> > >> > >> maybe they'll provide some advice
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> - Setting dom.ipc.plugins.timeoutSecs to -1 in browser settings
>> > does
>> > >> not
>> > >> > >> help (this is a timeout for the flash plugin response)
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> For now maybe I can try some flash debagger to try to debug
>> this.
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> Best regards,
>> > >> > >> Irina.
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 12:57 PM, seba.wagner@gmail.com
>> > >> > >> <seba.wagner@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> > I think the issue has been reviewed.
>> > >> > >> > So we can be sure that the codec change in the codec is not an
>> > >> issue.
>> > >> > >> > Maybe we can debug the crashes a bit more before we start the
>> > vote.
>> > >> > >> >
>> > >> > >> > @Irina Thanks for the Tests!
>> > >> > >> > Can you please check those questions
>> > >> > >> > A) What OS and flash player Version and browser was that?
>> > >> > >> > B) When did the crash happen exactly?
>> > >> > >> > C) Did the Plugin crash in terms of:
>> > >> > >> > 1) showing a dialog that a script is slowing down?
>> > >> > >> > 2) Browser replaces complete Flash Applet and shows message
>> like
>> > >> > "player
>> > >> > >> > crashed" so that also you need to restart the Browser
>> > >> > >> > 3) Player freezes and no more clicks possible?
>> > >> > >> > D) Is there a screenshot from such a crash somewhere?
>> > >> > >> > E) Is there something is the servers log when the crash
>> happens?
>> > >> > >> >
>> > >> > >> > Did the crash happen always at a certain user action (B)
>> might be
>> > >> the
>> > >> > >> most
>> > >> > >> > important question.
>> > >> > >> > But it is also not clear to me yet what kind of crash we are
>> > >> talking
>> > >> > >> about.
>> > >> > >> > Flash Player crash can have so many different meanings.
>> > >> > >> >
>> > >> > >> > Thanks!
>> > >> > >> > Sebastian
>> > >> > >> >  Am 14.03.2013 02:43 schrieb "Maxim Solodovnik" <
>> > >> solomax666@gmail.com
>> > >> > >:
>> > >> > >> >
>> > >> > >> > > It seems like we have proof swf11+h264 not causing
>> performance
>> > >> > >> > degradation
>> > >> > >> > >
>> > >> > >> > > @Sebastian what do you think, is it time for RC2?
>> > >> > >> > >
>> > >> > >> > >
>> > >> > >> > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 7:56 PM, Alexei Fedotov <
>> > >> > >> > alexei.fedotov@gmail.com>wrote:
>> > >> > >> > >
>> > >> > >> > >> Great job, Irina!
>> > >> > >> > >> Thanks for digging this out.
>> > >> > >> > >> --
>> > >> > >> > >> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями,
>> > >> > >> > >> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов,
>> > >> > >> > >> http://dataved.ru/
>> > >> > >> > >> +7 916 562 8095
>> > >> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Irina Arkhipets
>> > >> > >> > >> <irina.arkhipets@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> > >> > >> > Hi All,
>> > >> > >> > >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> > I investigated flash plugin crashes today and would like
>> to
>> > >> share
>> > >> > >> some
>> > >> > >> > >> > results.
>> > >> > >> > >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> > First of all, crash happens both with SWF10 and SWF 11.
>> It
>> > >> seems
>> > >> > >> like
>> > >> > >> > >> the
>> > >> > >> > >> > problem is reproducible with H263, H264 1.2 and H264 5.1.
>> > >> > >> > >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> > Actually, I haven't noticed significant CPU usage
>> > degradation
>> > >> for
>> > >> > >> H264
>> > >> > >> > >> in
>> > >> > >> > >> > compare with H263 - it always was about 50-70% when I
>> enter
>> > >> > >> > OpenMeetings
>> > >> > >> > >> > room. The same is true about the memory usage.
>> > >> > >> > >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> > I was able to get the crash report in Mozilla, however
>> for
>> > now
>> > >> > >> don't
>> > >> > >> > see
>> > >> > >> > >> > any info which can help me there.
>> > >> > >> > >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> > Tested environment was: Windows XP + Mozilla FireFox
>> 19.0 +
>> > >> flash
>> > >> > >> > player
>> > >> > >> > >> > 11.5.502.146. Tested server was demo.dataved.ru, there
>> were
>> > >> two
>> > >> > >> users
>> > >> > >> > >> with
>> > >> > >> > >> > videos (1 with big window and the other with normal) in
>> the
>> > >> room
>> > >> > +
>> > >> > >> me
>> > >> > >> > >> with
>> > >> > >> > >> > normal window.
>> > >> > >> > >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> > For now anybody can try different cases on
>> > >> > >> > >> > http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings and get own
>> expression.
>> > >> > >> > >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> > Below are the links which can be tested and my today
>> results
>> > >> for
>> > >> > >> each
>> > >> > >> > of
>> > >> > >> > >> > them:
>> > >> > >> > >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> > -
>> > >> > >> >
>> > >>
>> http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf10.swf&junk=666-
>> > >> > >> > >> > SWF10 + H263. Crashed 3 times from 10.
>> > >> > >> > >> > -
>> > >> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> >
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> >
>> http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf11.h263.swf&junk=666-
>> > >> > >> > >> > SWF11 + H263. Crashed 0 times from 10.
>> > >> > >> > >> > -
>> > >> > >> > >> >
>> > >> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> >
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> >
>> http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf11.h264_1_2.swf&junk=666-
>> > >> > >> > >> > SWF11 + H264 1.2. Crashed 2 times from 10.
>> > >> > >> > >> > -
>> > >> > >> > >> >
>> > >> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> >
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> >
>> http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf11.h264_5_1.swf&junk=666-
>> > >> > >> > >> > SWF11 + H264 5/1/ Crashed 1 times from 10.
>> > >> > >> > >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> > Best regards,
>> > >> > >> > >> > Irina.
>> > >> > >> > >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Maxim Solodovnik <
>> > >> > >> > solomax666@gmail.com
>> > >> > >> > >> >wrote:
>> > >> > >> > >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> that is definitely something not readable :(
>> > >> > >> > >> >> I can see the word "static" in the generated code :)
>> this
>> > is
>> > >> > >> global
>> > >> > >> > >> >> variables :)))
>> > >> > >> > >> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:57 PM, seba.wagner@gmail.com<
>> > >> > >> > >> >> seba.wagner@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> > >> > >> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> > just for consideration,
>> > >> > >> > >> >> > attached is the current AS3 that OpenLaszlo generates.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >>
>> > >> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> >
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> >
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/download/attachments/27836308/lzswf9.tar.gz
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> > Sebastian
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> > 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik <solomax666@gmail.com>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >> I thought maybe it will be simple to convert swf10
>> > folder
>> > >> of
>> > >> > >> our
>> > >> > >> > >> sources
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >> + I would like "someone else" will handle it :))))
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:38 PM,
>> seba.wagner@gmail.com<
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >> seba.wagner@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> Sorry but that is useless.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> The AS3 code that OpenLaszlo compiles is not human
>> > >> readable.
>> > >> > >> It
>> > >> > >> > is
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> generated into some tmp directory.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> You can search on your disc for a file called
>> > >> > >> > LZC_COMPILER_OPTIONS
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> That should be into the same directory as the actual
>> > AS3
>> > >> > >> files.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> The thing is that there are of course some high
>> level
>> > >> > >> > similarities.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> However there are also high level similarities
>> between
>> > >> AS3
>> > >> > and
>> > >> > >> > >> HTML5.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> For
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> example an ActionScript3 "Sprite" is nearly the
>> same as
>> > >> an
>> > >> > >> HTML
>> > >> > >> > >> "div"
>> > >> > >> > >> >> or
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> maybe "span" but you can really translate those
>> things
>> > >> just
>> > >> > >> and
>> > >> > >> > >> expect
>> > >> > >> > >> >> the
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> functionality is the same.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> The entire notation in MXML is different, same about
>> > the
>> > >> > >> script
>> > >> > >> > >> blogs.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> A script blog in openlaszlo looks like:
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> var zxac = 3;
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> in AS it would look like:
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> var zxac:int = 3;
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> No matter how you do it, you will have to go through
>> > >> every
>> > >> > >> file,
>> > >> > >> > >> debug
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> every line of code, understand the logic, convert
>> it to
>> > >> > MXML,
>> > >> > >> > test
>> > >> > >> > >> it.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> And
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> some constructs of course won't translate that easy.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> For example in Flex you can't create that simple a
>> > >> "global"
>> > >> > >> > >> pointer.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> Like: canvas.myattribute or parent.myattribute
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> This simply won't compile. AS3 won't let you compile
>> > such
>> > >> > >> > >> pointers. You
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> need to pass the parameter into the object to access
>> > its
>> > >> > >> > >> attributes, or
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> pass the attribute inside of it.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> So a lot of the things we do when having some
>> attribute
>> > >> in
>> > >> > the
>> > >> > >> > >> canvas
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> and pointing to them from various places in the app
>> ...
>> > >> it
>> > >> > >> simply
>> > >> > >> > >> >> doesn't
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> work in MXML.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> So of course it depends on to what extend you plan
>> to
>> > >> build
>> > >> > a
>> > >> > >> > Flex
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> client. Maybe just the SWF11 app converting to MXML
>> is
>> > an
>> > >> > >> option.
>> > >> > >> > >> But
>> > >> > >> > >> >> the
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> entire SWF8 app. I don't think so. Just too complex.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> Sebastian
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> 2013/3/13 Alexei Fedotov <alexei.fedotov@gmail.com>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> The files appear in some temporary directory. I
>> cannot
>> > >> > >> remember
>> > >> > >> > >> where
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> they are exactly. If you make an error when
>> embedding
>> > >> > action
>> > >> > >> > >> script
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> into openlaszlo (should be something on action
>> script
>> > >> > level,
>> > >> > >> xml
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> markup would break the preprocessor itself), you
>> get
>> > in
>> > >> the
>> > >> > >> > error
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> message an exact pointer to the file where your
>> error
>> > is
>> > >> > put.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> --
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями,
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов,
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> http://dataved.ru/
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> +7 916 562 8095
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Maxim Solodovnik
>> <
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> solomax666@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > @Alexey we currently using flex 4.5.0, 4.6.1 to
>> > create
>> > >> > >> > bytecode
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > "can be inspected/used" means autoconverted :)
>> > action
>> > >> > >> script
>> > >> > >> > >> instead
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> of
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > openlaszlo is also good :)
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > can you please tell me how this can be inspected?
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > @Sebastian I thought we use only
>> > >> > >> view/label/dataset/connection
>> > >> > >> > >> in
>> > >> > >> > >> >> our
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> swf10
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > code .... all these primitives should be
>> available
>> > in
>> > >> > MXML.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Alexei Fedotov <
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> alexei.fedotov@gmail.com>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > wrote:
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> @Max AS3 means action script
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> Modern OpenLaszlo compiles into AS3, these files
>> > can
>> > >> be
>> > >> > >> > >> inspected
>> > >> > >> > >> >> and
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> used instead of openlaszlo files.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> Then standard Adobe tools create swf bytecode
>> from
>> > >> AS3.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> --
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями,
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов,
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> http://dataved.ru/
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> +7 916 562 8095
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:18 AM,
>> > >> seba.wagner@gmail.com
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> <seba.wagner@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > MXML has certainly advantages in the sense of
>> > wider
>> > >> > >> > >> acceptance
>> > >> > >> > >> >> and
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > better
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > development tools.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > But it really means to build something from
>> > >> scratch.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Sebastian
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik <
>> solomax666@gmail.com
>> > >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> @Alexey we currently using openlaszlo for
>> video
>> > >> (not
>> > >> > >> sure
>> > >> > >> > >> what
>> > >> > >> > >> >> do
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> you
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> mean
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> by AS3). Currently our version of video
>> > >> components is
>> > >> > >> > built
>> > >> > >> > >> >> using
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> flex.4.6.1 while actual version available for
>> > >> > download
>> > >> > >> is
>> > >> > >> > >> flex
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> 4.9.1.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> I was hoping we will have less bugs and
>> better
>> > >> > >> performance
>> > >> > >> > >> if we
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> will
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> use
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> MXML directly for our code. But this is just
>> a
>> > >> guess.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 2:00 PM,
>> > >> > seba.wagner@gmail.com<
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> seba.wagner@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> You can simply disable h264 and build to
>> swf11.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> It is only about the codec not about SWF
>> > formats.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> I just compared and could not really find
>> out
>> > if
>> > >> > there
>> > >> > >> > are
>> > >> > >> > >> big
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> differences.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> However it is definitly good to really
>> compare
>> > >> the
>> > >> > >> > impacts
>> > >> > >> > >> on
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> CPU and
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> bandwidth usage when switching the Codec for
>> > >> video
>> > >> > >> > >> encoding.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> It seemed to me like encoding with h264 is
>> > using
>> > >> a
>> > >> > >> second
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> process (on
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> OSX
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> that process is called WindowsServer). It
>> might
>> > >> be
>> > >> > >> that
>> > >> > >> > >> h264
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> encoding
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> can
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> use some more system ressources. However...
>> all
>> > >> just
>> > >> > >> > >> guessing
>> > >> > >> > >> >> at
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> this
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> point.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> Sebastian
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik <
>> > solomax666@gmail.com
>> > >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> Maybe we can add conversion task to the
>> GSOC
>> > >> ideas?
>> > >> > >> do
>> > >> > >> > we
>> > >> > >> > >> need
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> it?
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> I don't see any problems with h264
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> I'm going to build
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> 1) SWF11 with h264 support removed
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> 2) SWF11 with different h264 profile
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> 3) SWF10
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>  and compare
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> but i'm not expecting any major
>> differences :(
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 1:17 PM,
>> > >> > >> seba.wagner@gmail.com<
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> seba.wagner@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> No there is no such conversion. You have
>> to
>> > >> > rewrite
>> > >> > >> the
>> > >> > >> > >> LZX
>> > >> > >> > >> >> to
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> MXML
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> and
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> AS3 files.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> What about the Video Codec? I don't think
>> it
>> > >> makes
>> > >> > >> > sense
>> > >> > >> > >> to
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> start a
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> RC2
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> vote before this issue has been further
>> > >> analyzed.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> Is there a given restriction that needs
>> h264?
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> Sebastian
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik <
>> > >> solomax666@gmail.com>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> @Sebastian, maybe you know, is there any
>> > >> > >> possibility
>> > >> > >> > to
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> automatically/semi-automatically convert
>> our
>> > >> > swf10
>> > >> > >> > >> sources
>> > >> > >> > >> >> to
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> "apache flex
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> xml"? Since Openlaszlo seems to be not
>> > >> actively
>> > >> > >> > >> developed
>> > >> > >> > >> >> and
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> flex
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> is now
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> part of Apache, maybe we can benefit from
>> > such
>> > >> > >> > >> conversion?
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Maxim
>> > >> > Solodovnik <
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> solomax666@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> I have forwarded all missing messages
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:25 PM,
>> > >> > >> > seba.wagner@gmail.com<
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> seba.wagner@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> you wrote me without CC'ing Irina or
>> the
>> > >> list
>> > >> > :)
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> I missed the 'reply all' button
>> somehow.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> Sebastian
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 Maxim Solodovnik <
>> > >> > solomax666@gmail.com
>> > >> > >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> this one
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>>
>> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OPENMEETINGS-559
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> @Irina can you describe your problem
>> more
>> > >> > >> detailed?
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:46 PM,
>> > >> > >> > >> seba.wagner@gmail.com <
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> seba.wagner@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> We should simply do some tests to
>> > measure
>> > >> the
>> > >> > >> > actual
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> video with
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> h264 and the default Sorensen Codec.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Then we have some numbers.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> What are the exact reports for "Flash
>> > >> Player
>> > >> > >> > >> crashing" ?
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Sebastian
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 Maxim Solodovnik <
>> > >> > >> solomax666@gmail.com>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> I can add switching H264 off, but
>> I'm
>> > not
>> > >> > >> sure if
>> > >> > >> > >> this
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> is the
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> problem.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Most claims are related to the
>> crashing
>> > >> > flash
>> > >> > >> in
>> > >> > >> > >> >> browser.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Do you think this would help?
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 2:56 PM,
>> > >> > >> > >> seba.wagner@gmail.com<
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> seba.wagner@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry I did not meant default h323
>> I
>> > >> meant
>> > >> > >> the
>> > >> > >> > >> default
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sorenson Spark
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> <
>> > >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorenson_Spark
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >(Sorenson
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> H.263)
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 seba.wagner@gmail.com <
>> > >> > >> > >> >> seba.wagner@gmail.com>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> h264 simply needs more computing
>> time.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> AEC also is enabled (which needs
>> some
>> > >> > >> > percentages
>> > >> > >> > >> >> more
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> CPU
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> power then the previous
>> > >> implementation).
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Switching to later Flex SDK is
>> surely
>> > >> > >> desirable
>> > >> > >> > >> but
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> basically
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the performance is a Flash
>> > >> > >> > Player/VirtualMachine
>> > >> > >> > >> >> issue
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> not a
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Flash Compiler
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> issue. So as long as there is no
>> > Flash
>> > >> > >> Player
>> > >> > >> > 12
>> > >> > >> > >> that
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> requires a later Flex
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> SDK it is unlikely that you will
>> gain
>> > >> > >> > performance
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> advantages.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there is a hardware
>> > >> acceleration
>> > >> > for
>> > >> > >> > >> playback
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> of
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> h264
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> video, but I have really no idea
>> > about
>> > >> > >> > producing
>> > >> > >> > >> h264
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> in the
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> browser in
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that context.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From my point of view the main
>> reason
>> > >> for
>> > >> > >> using
>> > >> > >> > >> h264
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> is the
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> SIP
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> integration. For users that don't
>> use
>> > >> SIP
>> > >> > >> > >> integration
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> using
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> h264 will
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> simply just mean an annoying CPU
>> > usage.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The case is different for AEC
>> from my
>> > >> > point
>> > >> > >> of
>> > >> > >> > >> view.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> AEC
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> brings
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> enhancement for everybody
>> > immediately.
>> > >> And
>> > >> > >> the
>> > >> > >> > >> more
>> > >> > >> > >> >> of
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> CPU
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that it uses is
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> only 3-4 % from my point of view.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So my preference would be to make
>> the
>> > >> > video
>> > >> > >> > >> codec use
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> the
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> standard h323. To be honest: Who
>> has
>> > >> ever
>> > >> > >> > >> complained
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> in the
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> last couple of
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> years about video quality? The
>> > >> discussion
>> > >> > is
>> > >> > >> > >> almost
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> always
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> about audio
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> delay, audio quality, micro echo,
>> bad
>> > >> > >> > >> microphones et
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> cetera
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> but actually
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> never about video quality.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And from what I have seen h264
>> also
>> > >> brings
>> > >> > >> no
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> improvements
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> terms of bandwidth usage.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> h264 could be available via
>> > >> configuration
>> > >> > >> (or
>> > >> > >> > to
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> enable SIP
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> integration), but h323 should be
>> used
>> > >> by
>> > >> > >> > default.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 Maxim Solodovnik <
>> > >> > >> > solomax666@gmail.com
>> > >> > >> > >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Raju, Sebastian,
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> according to
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>>
>> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OPENMEETINGS-559and
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> various user reports (including
>> mail
>> > >> from
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> Sebastian[1])
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Main code changes were: adding
>> > >> > >> > >> EnchancedMicrophone
>> > >> > >> > >> >> and
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> switch
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to h264
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to the Google
>> switching to
>> > >> h264
>> > >> > >> can
>> > >> > >> > >> cause
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> higher
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> CPU
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> usage.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can this be fixed by changing
>> > >> H264Level?
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (currently H264Level.LEVEL_1_2 is
>> > >> used)
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe you can us understand were
>> > >> > >> > >> >> performance/stability
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> degradation caused by code
>> changes?
>> > Or
>> > >> > >> maybe
>> > >> > >> > it
>> > >> > >> > >> is
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> because
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of Flex4.6.0?
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can stability be improved by
>> > >> switching to
>> > >> > >> > >> Flex4.9.1?
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance for your help
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [1]
>> > >> > >> > >> http://markmail.org/message/2el63qarsjmbvfyy
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>  <
>> > >> > >> > http://markmail.org/message/2el63qarsjmbvfyy
>> > >> > >> > >> >--
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WBR
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> seba.wagner@gmail.com
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> --
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> seba.wagner@gmail.com
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> --
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> WBR
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> --
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> seba.wagner@gmail.com
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> --
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> WBR
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> --
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> seba.wagner@gmail.com
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> --
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> WBR
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> --
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> WBR
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> Maxim aka solomax
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> --
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> Sebastian Wagner
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>> seba.wagner@gmail.com
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> --
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> WBR
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>> Maxim aka solomax
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> --
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> Sebastian Wagner
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> http://www.webbase-design.de
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>> seba.wagner@gmail.com
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> --
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> WBR
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >> Maxim aka solomax
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > --
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Sebastian Wagner
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > http://www.webbase-design.de
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > http://www.wagner-sebastian.com
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >> > seba.wagner@gmail.com
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > --
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > WBR
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>> > Maxim aka solomax
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> --
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> Sebastian Wagner
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> http://www.webbase-design.de
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>> seba.wagner@gmail.com
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >> --
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >> WBR
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >> Maxim aka solomax
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >> > --
>> > >> > >> > >> >> > Sebastian Wagner
>> > >> > >> > >> >> > https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock
>> > >> > >> > >> >> > http://www.webbase-design.de
>> > >> > >> > >> >> > http://www.wagner-sebastian.com
>> > >> > >> > >> >> > seba.wagner@gmail.com
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >> --
>> > >> > >> > >> >> WBR
>> > >> > >> > >> >> Maxim aka solomax
>> > >> > >> > >> >>
>> > >> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> > >
>> > >> > >> > >
>> > >> > >> > >
>> > >> > >> > > --
>> > >> > >> > > WBR
>> > >> > >> > > Maxim aka solomax
>> > >> > >> > >
>> > >> > >> >
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > --
>> > >> > WBR
>> > >> > Maxim aka solomax
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> --
>> > >> Sebastian Wagner
>> > >> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock
>> > >> http://www.webbase-design.de
>> > >> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com
>> > >> seba.wagner@gmail.com
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sebastian Wagner
>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock
>> http://www.webbase-design.de
>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com
>> seba.wagner@gmail.com
>>
>
>

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