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From Michael Dick <mik...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Apache trademarks on OpenJPA web site
Date Wed, 20 May 2009 19:14:09 GMT
 Donald's a busy guy, not sure I'd want to say he's over-burdened but I
think he's raising a good point.

Making one update isn't much of a burden but keeping it up to date could be.
In addition Donald's suggestion of more consistent branding is a good thing
(see Eclipse.org's projects [1]).

I think the site specific stuff, #2 - #4, can be done on a site by site
basis, but #1 & #5 seem fairly standard and a lot of sites would benefit
from having a template that they could insert a logo into and apply to their
site.

Maybe this isn't  the right mailing list to suggest it on, but having a
template banner / footer might be well received by a lot of projects.

[1] http://www.eclipse.org/projects/listofprojects.php

-mike


On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 1:18 PM, Lawrence Rosen <lrosen@rosenlaw.com> wrote:

> Donald Woods asked about notices at the bottom of our web pages:
>
> > For #5, why should we put the burden on every project to list individual
>
> > trademarks?  If you look at other websites such as:
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> I don't suggest that we put a burden on anyone. I hope there will be a page
> at www.apache.org <http://www.apache.org/>  that will list all our
> trademarks. That will become the official list and the official notice.
>
>
>
> What I suggest is the following two sentences at the bottom of our web
> pages, in small print:
>
>
>
> Copyright (C) 2009 Apache Software Foundation. Licensed under Apache
> License
> 2.0 (see www.apache.org <http://www.apache.org/> ).
>
> Apache and the Apache feather logo are trademarks of Apache Software
> Foundation.
>
>
>
> I don't consider that much of a burden. While those notices are not legally
> required, there are certain legal advantages to our including those notices
> (particularly a copyright notice!) in small print almost everywhere.
>
>
>
> If you prefer to replace that with a "Terms of Use" link, that's also
> effective, although I don't believe it offers the same legal advantages as
> explicit copyright notices on the pages themselves. But hey, we're not
> going
> to sue anyone anyway, so perhaps I'm being over-protective? Or you
> over-burdened? :-)
>
>
>
> All other notices would be entirely optional to the project, such as
> acknowledgement of Sun's "Java" trademark, or notice of the project's own
> trademarks.
>
>
>
> /Larry
>
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: Donald Woods [mailto:dwoods@apache.org]
>
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 6:12 AM
>
> > To: dev@openjpa.apache.org
>
> > Cc: Craig.Russell@Sun.COM; 'ASF PRC Team'
>
> > Subject: Re: Apache trademarks on OpenJPA web site
>
> >
>
> > For #5, why should we put the burden on every project to list individual
>
> > trademarks?  If you look at other websites such as:
>
> >     java.net
>
> >     code.google.com
>
> >     sourceforge.net
>
> >     www.sun.com
>
> >     www.ibm.com
>
> >     www.hp.com
>
> > they don't list trademarks on their main website pages.  Each have a
>
> > "Terms of Use" link at the bottom, which leads to a Legal page that
>
> > either contains trademark statements or links to a subpage which lists
>
> > the trademarks -
>
> >     http://java.net/terms.csp - Section 5c
>
> >     http://code.google.com/tos.html - Section 4
>
> >     http://apps.sourceforge.net/trac/sitelegal/wiki/Terms%20of%20Use -
>
> > Section 6
>
> >     http://www.sun.com/suntrademarks/
>
> >     http://www.ibm.com/legal/copytrade.shtml
>
> >     http://welcome.hp.com/country/us/en/termsofuse.html
>
> >
>
> > Shouldn't we create a similar "Terms of Use" page (covering License,
>
> > Trademark, Privacy, ...) for all ASF projects to link to in the footer
>
> > of our web and wiki pages?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > -Donald
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Lawrence Rosen wrote:
>
> > > Hi Craig,
>
> > >
>
> > > I took your complaint to be about the complexities of trademark law,
> not
>
> > > about me. :-) I'm merely today's messenger with a confusing message.
>
> > >
>
> > > Here's an example that you may find useful, for a dessert website:
>
> > >
>
> > > **************
>
> > >
>
> > > Welcome to the Jello Brand gelatin recipe cookbook, brought to you by
>
> > the
>
> > > Kraft Foods Company.
>
> > >
>
> > > Select among the following:
>
> > >    * Flavors of Jello gelatin
>
> > >    * Jello and Fruit: The Perfect Combination
>
> > >    * Whipped Jello for a Romantic Evening Soiree
>
> > >    * Feeding a large family with Jello
>
> > >    * Textbook on the chemistry of Jello and other brands of gelatin
>
> > >
>
> > > ***************
>
> > >
>
> > > Notice that I slipped casually from strong trademark ("Jello brand
>
> > gelatin")
>
> > > to adjective ("Jello gelatin") to noun (just "Jello"), which is
>
> > unavoidable
>
> > > in casual speech, and perfectly legal. Trademark law fortunately
> doesn't
>
> > > require that we all take a refresher course in English grammar or
>
> > > continually utter certain magic words!
>
> > >
>
> > > Here's what I would expect in terms of branding Apache OpenJPA:
>
> > >
>
> > > 1. The OpenJPA website should start with a specific feather logo that
>
> > > identifies it as a website of the Apache Software Foundation. This logo
>
> > > should include the words "Apache Software Foundation" and a pointer to
>
> > our
>
> > > main website homepage, www.apache.org. In fact, if you click on that
>
> > logo
>
> > > you should go to the ASF homepage.
>
> > >
>
> > > 2. Somewhere prominent, the banner on the first page of the OpenJPA
>
> > website
>
> > > should identify the "Apache (TM) OpenJPA Project". That "TM" can be
>
> > fairly
>
> > > small, but not invisible. Then the body of the page can use the terms
>
> > > "OpenJPA project" or "OpenJPA team" or even "committers to OpenJPA"
> when
>
> > you
>
> > > mean your ASF project.
>
> > >
>
> > > 3. Then I expect the first prominent reference to the output of the
>
> > OpenJPA
>
> > > project to say that you produce and distribute "Apache OpenJPA (TM)
>
> > software
>
> > > that implements Sun's Java Persistence API (JPA) specification for the
>
> > > transparent persistence of Java objects" (or whatever is appropriate
> and
>
> > > true). Again, the "TM" can be fairly small, but not invisible; if you
>
> > don't
>
> > > want to bother claiming a trademark on "OpenJPA", simply leave off that
>
> > TM.
>
> > >
>
> > > 4. From then on, when referring to the software, you can say things
>
> > like:
>
> > >    * Unit tests for OpenJPA
>
> > >    * Downloading OpenJPA software
>
> > >    * OpenJPA is distributed under Apache License 2.0
>
> > >    * How is OpenJPA implemented?
>
> > >    * Apache OpenJPA integrates with Apache Tomcat.
>
> > >    * The sixth iteration of OpenJPA is complete!
>
> > >
>
> > > ...and lots of other casual uses that engineers should be able to utter
>
> > with
>
> > > ease and complete freedom.
>
> > >
>
> > > 5. At the bottom, in small but not invisible letters, include all the
>
> > > appropriate copyright and trademark and licensing notices to assert
> that
>
> > ASF
>
> > > is the owner of whatever intellectual property we claim. To be polite,
>
> > you
>
> > > can identify that "Java is a trademark of Sun Microsystems (or
> Oracle)."
>
> > >
>
> > > /Larry
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
>
> > >> From: Craig.Russell@Sun.COM [mailto:Craig.Russell@Sun.COM]
>
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 11:46 AM
>
> > >> To: lrosen@rosenlaw.com
>
> > >> Cc: 'ASF PRC Team'; dev@openjpa.apache.org
>
> > >> Subject: Re: Apache trademarks on OpenJPA web site
>
> > >>
>
> > >> Hi Larry,
>
> > >>
>
> > >> On May 18, 2009, at 9:58 PM, Lawrence Rosen wrote:
>
> > >>
>
> > >>> Craig Russell complained:
>
> > >> First, let me be clear. I'm not complaining. I'm trying to understand
>
> > >> just what we need to do in our public face to be compliant with an
>
> > >> Apache policy that allows Apache to promote and enforce our marks.
>
> > >>
>
> > >> My questions really are just questions. They are not rhetorical or
>
> > >> argumentative. Please don't read any belligerence into the questions.
>
> > >>>> You've reminded me of the trademark rules that have given most
>
> > >>>> engineers angina: that trademarks are not nouns but adjectives.
This
>
> > >>>> little trick is what makes normal text look like legalese once
>
> > >>>> lawyers
>
> > >>>> get hold of it.
>
> > >>> I'm aware of the pain that causes, and I don't want to turn Apache
>
> > >>> web pages
>
> > >>> into legalese.
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> The first major use of a trademark on a web page ought to be, in
>
> > >>> some way, a
>
> > >>> combination of the trademark as an adjective modifying the
>
> > >>> "official" noun.
>
> > >> The trouble for OpenJPA is that there's no "official" noun. "Software"
>
> > >> is certainly an appropriate noun, as are "program", "library",
>
> > >> "package", and "implementation". So should we choose for each project
>
> > >> an official noun and be consistent with its "first use" on each web
>
> > >> page?
>
> > >>> That is so you can educate your readers about your trademark and your
>
> > >>> product. But it needn't be in sentence form, nor even contain words
>
> > >>> in their
>
> > >>> normal English usages or sequence. There are lots of creative ways
to
>
> > >>> introduce trademarks to the public.
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> So I totally approve of your "OpenJPA is Apache's implementation of
>
> > >>> Sun's
>
> > >>> Java Persistence API (JPA) specification for the transparent
>
> > >>> persistence of
>
> > >>> Java objects."
>
> > >> This confuses me. The use of OpenJPA here seems like a noun.
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> You needn't say "OpenJPA software" since you said "OpenJPA
>
> > >>> implementation".
>
> > >> Not exactly. It doesn't say "OpenJPA implementation is Apache's
>
> > >> implementation". It would actually sound better to me to say "OpenJPA
>
> > >> software is Apache's implementation."
>
> > >>
>
> > >> So if it's not a noun, it would never be ok to say "OpenJPA is
>
> > >> <something>". It would have to be "OpenJPA Software is <something>."
>
> > >>> They sort of mean the same thing, I think. I'd want you to be more
>
> > >>> precise
>
> > >>> if I intended to file a trademark registration with the USPTO, but
>
> > >>> for a
>
> > >>> common law trademark, I think that works just fine. Maybe I'd ask
> that
>
> > >>> somewhere you say "click here to download Apache OpenJPA software."
>
> > >> That's easy to do once we understand the rules.
>
> > >>
>
> > >>> But otherwise, don't change that website.
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> What I objected to in my previous email was the first sentence on
> your
>
> > >>> http://openjpa.apache.org/unit-tests.html page, "OpenJPA's unit
>
> > >>> tests are
>
> > >>> written using JUnit." That sentence doesn't give anyone a clue what
>
> > >>> noun the
>
> > >>> adjective OpenJPA modifies. Nor have I ever seen an apostrophe-s on
> an
>
> > >>> English adjective. :-)
>
> > >> Right, back to our noun versus adjective. The sentence doesn't make
>
> > >> sense with OpenJPA as an adjective. As an adjective, it could be
>
> > >> "OpenJPA unit tests", since part of the OpenJPA implementation
>
> > >> consists of unit tests. But OpenJPA is not just unit tests. It's also
>
> > >> a functional piece of software.
>
> > >>
>
> > >> But our official documentation is full of "OpenJPA as noun" and not
>
> > >> "OpenJPA as adjective". So I'm really struggling with whether it's
>
> > >> just the "first use" on a page that needs to use OpenJPA Software or
>
> > >> not.
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> /Larry (with my English teacher hat on that I dug out of the very
>
> > >>> back of my
>
> > >>> closet)
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
>
> > >>>> From: Craig.Russell@Sun.COM [mailto:Craig.Russell@Sun.COM]
>
> > >>>> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 2:10 PM
>
> > >>>> To: lrosen@rosenlaw.com
>
> > >>>> Cc: 'ASF PRC Team'; dev@openjpa.apache.org
>
> > >>>> Subject: Re: Apache trademarks on OpenJPA web site
>
> > >>>>
>
> > >>>> Hi Larry,
>
> > >>>>
>
> > >>>> On May 18, 2009, at 10:45 AM, Lawrence Rosen wrote:
>
> > >>>>
>
> > >>>>> 3. Trademarks should be used as adjectives, not nouns. So the
>
> > >>>>> following
>
> > >>>>> sentence is incorrect trademark usage: "OpenJPA's unit tests
are
>
> > >>>>> written
>
> > >>>>> using JUnit." Consider rewriting as "Unit tests for Apache
OpenJPA
>
> > >>>>> persistence project software are written using the JUnit testing
>
> > >>>>> framework."
>
> > >>>>> Always assume that customers have to be taught to associate
the
>
> > >>>>> trademark
>
> > >>>>> with the noun in modifies. Once they've done that in their
minds,
>
> > >>>>> then you
>
> > >>>>> have a very valuable trademark.
>
> > >>>>>
>
> > >>>>> /Larry
>
> > >>>>>
>
> > >>>> You've reminded me of the trademark rules that have given most
>
> > >>>> engineers angina: that trademarks are not nouns but adjectives.
This
>
> > >>>> little trick is what makes normal text look like legalese once
>
> > >>>> lawyers
>
> > >>>> get hold of it.
>
> > >>>>
>
> > >>>> Where we say "OpenJPA is Apache's implementation of Sun's Java
>
> > >>>> Persistence API (JPA) specification for the transparent persistence
>
> > >>>> of
>
> > >>>> Java objects. This document provides an overview of the JPA standard
>
> > >>>> and technical details on the use of OpenJPA." we would have to
say,
>
> > >>>> instead, "OpenJPA software is Apache's implementation of Sun's
Java
>
> > >>>> Persistence API (JPA) specification for the transparent persistence
>
> > >>>> of
>
> > >>>> Java objects. This document provides an overview of the JPA standard
>
> > >>>> and technical details on the use of OpenJPA software."
>
> > >>>>
>
> > >>>> Did I get this right?
>
> > >>>>
>
> > >>>> Thanks,
>
> > >>>>
>
> > >>>> Craig
>
> > >>>>>
>
> > >>>>>
>
> > >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>
> > >>>>>> From: Craig.Russell@Sun.COM [mailto:Craig.Russell@Sun.COM]
>
> > >>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 8:49 AM
>
> > >>>>>> To: ASF PRC Team
>
> > >>>>>> Cc: dev@openjpa.apache.org
>
> > >>>>>> Subject: Apache trademarks on OpenJPA web site
>
> > >>>>>>
>
> > >>>>>> Hi PRC,
>
> > >>>>>>
>
> > >>>>>> We've finished updating the OpenJPA web site master pages
to
>
> > >>>>>> include
>
> > >>>>>> Apache trademarks in an obvious but not obtrusive way.
>
> > >>>>>>
>
> > >>>>>> http://openjpa.apache.org/unit-tests.html is an example.
>
> > >>>>>>
>
> > >>>>>> Please let us know if this is in accordance with the current
>
> > >>>>>> trademark
>
> > >>>>>> notice policy.
>
> > >>>>>>
>
> > >>>>>> Thanks,
>
> > >>>>>>
>
> > >>>>>> Craig
>
> > >>>>>>
>
> > >>>>>> Craig L Russell
>
> > >>>>>> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
>
> > >>>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
>
> > >>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>
> > >>>>>
>
> > >>>> Craig L Russell
>
> > >>>> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
>
> > >>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
>
> > >>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>
> > >>>
>
> > >> Craig L Russell
>
> > >> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
>
> > >> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
>
> > >> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
>

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