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From Donald Woods <dwo...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Apache trademarks on OpenJPA web site
Date Wed, 20 May 2009 13:11:51 GMT
For #5, why should we put the burden on every project to list individual 
trademarks?  If you look at other websites such as:
	java.net
	code.google.com
	sourceforge.net
	www.sun.com
	www.ibm.com
	www.hp.com
they don't list trademarks on their main website pages.  Each have a 
"Terms of Use" link at the bottom, which leads to a Legal page that 
either contains trademark statements or links to a subpage which lists 
the trademarks -
	http://java.net/terms.csp - Section 5c
	http://code.google.com/tos.html - Section 4
	http://apps.sourceforge.net/trac/sitelegal/wiki/Terms%20of%20Use - 
Section 6
	http://www.sun.com/suntrademarks/
	http://www.ibm.com/legal/copytrade.shtml
	http://welcome.hp.com/country/us/en/termsofuse.html

Shouldn't we create a similar "Terms of Use" page (covering License, 
Trademark, Privacy, ...) for all ASF projects to link to in the footer 
of our web and wiki pages?


-Donald


Lawrence Rosen wrote:
> Hi Craig,
> 
> I took your complaint to be about the complexities of trademark law, not
> about me. :-) I'm merely today's messenger with a confusing message.
> 
> Here's an example that you may find useful, for a dessert website:
> 
> **************
> 
> Welcome to the Jello Brand gelatin recipe cookbook, brought to you by the
> Kraft Foods Company.
> 
> Select among the following:
>    * Flavors of Jello gelatin
>    * Jello and Fruit: The Perfect Combination
>    * Whipped Jello for a Romantic Evening Soiree
>    * Feeding a large family with Jello
>    * Textbook on the chemistry of Jello and other brands of gelatin
> 
> ***************
> 
> Notice that I slipped casually from strong trademark ("Jello brand gelatin")
> to adjective ("Jello gelatin") to noun (just "Jello"), which is unavoidable
> in casual speech, and perfectly legal. Trademark law fortunately doesn't
> require that we all take a refresher course in English grammar or
> continually utter certain magic words!
> 
> Here's what I would expect in terms of branding Apache OpenJPA:
> 
> 1. The OpenJPA website should start with a specific feather logo that
> identifies it as a website of the Apache Software Foundation. This logo
> should include the words "Apache Software Foundation" and a pointer to our
> main website homepage, www.apache.org. In fact, if you click on that logo
> you should go to the ASF homepage.
> 
> 2. Somewhere prominent, the banner on the first page of the OpenJPA website
> should identify the "Apache (TM) OpenJPA Project". That "TM" can be fairly
> small, but not invisible. Then the body of the page can use the terms
> "OpenJPA project" or "OpenJPA team" or even "committers to OpenJPA" when you
> mean your ASF project. 
> 
> 3. Then I expect the first prominent reference to the output of the OpenJPA
> project to say that you produce and distribute "Apache OpenJPA (TM) software
> that implements Sun's Java Persistence API (JPA) specification for the
> transparent persistence of Java objects" (or whatever is appropriate and
> true). Again, the "TM" can be fairly small, but not invisible; if you don't
> want to bother claiming a trademark on "OpenJPA", simply leave off that TM.
> 
> 4. From then on, when referring to the software, you can say things like:
>    * Unit tests for OpenJPA
>    * Downloading OpenJPA software
>    * OpenJPA is distributed under Apache License 2.0
>    * How is OpenJPA implemented?
>    * Apache OpenJPA integrates with Apache Tomcat.
>    * The sixth iteration of OpenJPA is complete!
> 
> ...and lots of other casual uses that engineers should be able to utter with
> ease and complete freedom.
> 
> 5. At the bottom, in small but not invisible letters, include all the
> appropriate copyright and trademark and licensing notices to assert that ASF
> is the owner of whatever intellectual property we claim. To be polite, you
> can identify that "Java is a trademark of Sun Microsystems (or Oracle)."
> 
> /Larry
> 
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Craig.Russell@Sun.COM [mailto:Craig.Russell@Sun.COM]
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 11:46 AM
>> To: lrosen@rosenlaw.com
>> Cc: 'ASF PRC Team'; dev@openjpa.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: Apache trademarks on OpenJPA web site
>>
>> Hi Larry,
>>
>> On May 18, 2009, at 9:58 PM, Lawrence Rosen wrote:
>>
>>> Craig Russell complained:
>> First, let me be clear. I'm not complaining. I'm trying to understand
>> just what we need to do in our public face to be compliant with an
>> Apache policy that allows Apache to promote and enforce our marks.
>>
>> My questions really are just questions. They are not rhetorical or
>> argumentative. Please don't read any belligerence into the questions.
>>>> You've reminded me of the trademark rules that have given most
>>>> engineers angina: that trademarks are not nouns but adjectives. This
>>>> little trick is what makes normal text look like legalese once
>>>> lawyers
>>>> get hold of it.
>>> I'm aware of the pain that causes, and I don't want to turn Apache
>>> web pages
>>> into legalese.
>>>
>>> The first major use of a trademark on a web page ought to be, in
>>> some way, a
>>> combination of the trademark as an adjective modifying the
>>> "official" noun.
>> The trouble for OpenJPA is that there's no "official" noun. "Software"
>> is certainly an appropriate noun, as are "program", "library",
>> "package", and "implementation". So should we choose for each project
>> an official noun and be consistent with its "first use" on each web
>> page?
>>> That is so you can educate your readers about your trademark and your
>>> product. But it needn't be in sentence form, nor even contain words
>>> in their
>>> normal English usages or sequence. There are lots of creative ways to
>>> introduce trademarks to the public.
>>>
>>> So I totally approve of your "OpenJPA is Apache's implementation of
>>> Sun's
>>> Java Persistence API (JPA) specification for the transparent
>>> persistence of
>>> Java objects."
>> This confuses me. The use of OpenJPA here seems like a noun.
>>>
>>> You needn't say "OpenJPA software" since you said "OpenJPA
>>> implementation".
>> Not exactly. It doesn't say "OpenJPA implementation is Apache's
>> implementation". It would actually sound better to me to say "OpenJPA
>> software is Apache's implementation."
>>
>> So if it's not a noun, it would never be ok to say "OpenJPA is
>> <something>". It would have to be "OpenJPA Software is <something>."
>>> They sort of mean the same thing, I think. I'd want you to be more
>>> precise
>>> if I intended to file a trademark registration with the USPTO, but
>>> for a
>>> common law trademark, I think that works just fine. Maybe I'd ask that
>>> somewhere you say "click here to download Apache OpenJPA software."
>> That's easy to do once we understand the rules.
>>
>>> But otherwise, don't change that website.
>>>
>>> What I objected to in my previous email was the first sentence on your
>>> http://openjpa.apache.org/unit-tests.html page, "OpenJPA's unit
>>> tests are
>>> written using JUnit." That sentence doesn't give anyone a clue what
>>> noun the
>>> adjective OpenJPA modifies. Nor have I ever seen an apostrophe-s on an
>>> English adjective. :-)
>> Right, back to our noun versus adjective. The sentence doesn't make
>> sense with OpenJPA as an adjective. As an adjective, it could be
>> "OpenJPA unit tests", since part of the OpenJPA implementation
>> consists of unit tests. But OpenJPA is not just unit tests. It's also
>> a functional piece of software.
>>
>> But our official documentation is full of "OpenJPA as noun" and not
>> "OpenJPA as adjective". So I'm really struggling with whether it's
>> just the "first use" on a page that needs to use OpenJPA Software or
>> not.
>>>
>>> /Larry (with my English teacher hat on that I dug out of the very
>>> back of my
>>> closet)
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Craig.Russell@Sun.COM [mailto:Craig.Russell@Sun.COM]
>>>> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 2:10 PM
>>>> To: lrosen@rosenlaw.com
>>>> Cc: 'ASF PRC Team'; dev@openjpa.apache.org
>>>> Subject: Re: Apache trademarks on OpenJPA web site
>>>>
>>>> Hi Larry,
>>>>
>>>> On May 18, 2009, at 10:45 AM, Lawrence Rosen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> 3. Trademarks should be used as adjectives, not nouns. So the
>>>>> following
>>>>> sentence is incorrect trademark usage: "OpenJPA's unit tests are
>>>>> written
>>>>> using JUnit." Consider rewriting as "Unit tests for Apache OpenJPA
>>>>> persistence project software are written using the JUnit testing
>>>>> framework."
>>>>> Always assume that customers have to be taught to associate the
>>>>> trademark
>>>>> with the noun in modifies. Once they've done that in their minds,
>>>>> then you
>>>>> have a very valuable trademark.
>>>>>
>>>>> /Larry
>>>>>
>>>> You've reminded me of the trademark rules that have given most
>>>> engineers angina: that trademarks are not nouns but adjectives. This
>>>> little trick is what makes normal text look like legalese once
>>>> lawyers
>>>> get hold of it.
>>>>
>>>> Where we say "OpenJPA is Apache's implementation of Sun's Java
>>>> Persistence API (JPA) specification for the transparent persistence
>>>> of
>>>> Java objects. This document provides an overview of the JPA standard
>>>> and technical details on the use of OpenJPA." we would have to say,
>>>> instead, "OpenJPA software is Apache's implementation of Sun's Java
>>>> Persistence API (JPA) specification for the transparent persistence
>>>> of
>>>> Java objects. This document provides an overview of the JPA standard
>>>> and technical details on the use of OpenJPA software."
>>>>
>>>> Did I get this right?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Craig.Russell@Sun.COM [mailto:Craig.Russell@Sun.COM]
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 8:49 AM
>>>>>> To: ASF PRC Team
>>>>>> Cc: dev@openjpa.apache.org
>>>>>> Subject: Apache trademarks on OpenJPA web site
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi PRC,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We've finished updating the OpenJPA web site master pages to
>>>>>> include
>>>>>> Apache trademarks in an obvious but not obtrusive way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://openjpa.apache.org/unit-tests.html is an example.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please let us know if this is in accordance with the current
>>>>>> trademark
>>>>>> notice policy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>>>> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
>>>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
>>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>>>>
>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>>
>> Craig L Russell
>> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
> 
> 
> 

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