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From "Lawrence Rosen" <lro...@rosenlaw.com>
Subject RE: Apache trademarks on OpenJPA web site
Date Wed, 20 May 2009 18:18:57 GMT
Donald Woods asked about notices at the bottom of our web pages:

> For #5, why should we put the burden on every project to list individual

> trademarks?  If you look at other websites such as:

<snip>

 

I don't suggest that we put a burden on anyone. I hope there will be a page
at www.apache.org <http://www.apache.org/>  that will list all our
trademarks. That will become the official list and the official notice.

 

What I suggest is the following two sentences at the bottom of our web
pages, in small print:

 

Copyright (C) 2009 Apache Software Foundation. Licensed under Apache License
2.0 (see www.apache.org <http://www.apache.org/> ). 

Apache and the Apache feather logo are trademarks of Apache Software
Foundation.

 

I don't consider that much of a burden. While those notices are not legally
required, there are certain legal advantages to our including those notices
(particularly a copyright notice!) in small print almost everywhere. 

 

If you prefer to replace that with a "Terms of Use" link, that's also
effective, although I don't believe it offers the same legal advantages as
explicit copyright notices on the pages themselves. But hey, we're not going
to sue anyone anyway, so perhaps I'm being over-protective? Or you
over-burdened? :-)

 

All other notices would be entirely optional to the project, such as
acknowledgement of Sun's "Java" trademark, or notice of the project's own
trademarks. 

 

/Larry

 

 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Donald Woods [mailto:dwoods@apache.org]

> Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 6:12 AM

> To: dev@openjpa.apache.org

> Cc: Craig.Russell@Sun.COM; 'ASF PRC Team'

> Subject: Re: Apache trademarks on OpenJPA web site

> 

> For #5, why should we put the burden on every project to list individual

> trademarks?  If you look at other websites such as:

>     java.net

>     code.google.com

>     sourceforge.net

>     www.sun.com

>     www.ibm.com

>     www.hp.com

> they don't list trademarks on their main website pages.  Each have a

> "Terms of Use" link at the bottom, which leads to a Legal page that

> either contains trademark statements or links to a subpage which lists

> the trademarks -

>     http://java.net/terms.csp - Section 5c

>     http://code.google.com/tos.html - Section 4

>     http://apps.sourceforge.net/trac/sitelegal/wiki/Terms%20of%20Use -

> Section 6

>     http://www.sun.com/suntrademarks/

>     http://www.ibm.com/legal/copytrade.shtml

>     http://welcome.hp.com/country/us/en/termsofuse.html

> 

> Shouldn't we create a similar "Terms of Use" page (covering License,

> Trademark, Privacy, ...) for all ASF projects to link to in the footer

> of our web and wiki pages?

> 

> 

> -Donald

> 

> 

> Lawrence Rosen wrote:

> > Hi Craig,

> >

> > I took your complaint to be about the complexities of trademark law, not

> > about me. :-) I'm merely today's messenger with a confusing message.

> >

> > Here's an example that you may find useful, for a dessert website:

> >

> > **************

> >

> > Welcome to the Jello Brand gelatin recipe cookbook, brought to you by

> the

> > Kraft Foods Company.

> >

> > Select among the following:

> >    * Flavors of Jello gelatin

> >    * Jello and Fruit: The Perfect Combination

> >    * Whipped Jello for a Romantic Evening Soiree

> >    * Feeding a large family with Jello

> >    * Textbook on the chemistry of Jello and other brands of gelatin

> >

> > ***************

> >

> > Notice that I slipped casually from strong trademark ("Jello brand

> gelatin")

> > to adjective ("Jello gelatin") to noun (just "Jello"), which is

> unavoidable

> > in casual speech, and perfectly legal. Trademark law fortunately doesn't

> > require that we all take a refresher course in English grammar or

> > continually utter certain magic words!

> >

> > Here's what I would expect in terms of branding Apache OpenJPA:

> >

> > 1. The OpenJPA website should start with a specific feather logo that

> > identifies it as a website of the Apache Software Foundation. This logo

> > should include the words "Apache Software Foundation" and a pointer to

> our

> > main website homepage, www.apache.org. In fact, if you click on that

> logo

> > you should go to the ASF homepage.

> >

> > 2. Somewhere prominent, the banner on the first page of the OpenJPA

> website

> > should identify the "Apache (TM) OpenJPA Project". That "TM" can be

> fairly

> > small, but not invisible. Then the body of the page can use the terms

> > "OpenJPA project" or "OpenJPA team" or even "committers to OpenJPA" when

> you

> > mean your ASF project.

> >

> > 3. Then I expect the first prominent reference to the output of the

> OpenJPA

> > project to say that you produce and distribute "Apache OpenJPA (TM)

> software

> > that implements Sun's Java Persistence API (JPA) specification for the

> > transparent persistence of Java objects" (or whatever is appropriate and

> > true). Again, the "TM" can be fairly small, but not invisible; if you

> don't

> > want to bother claiming a trademark on "OpenJPA", simply leave off that

> TM.

> >

> > 4. From then on, when referring to the software, you can say things

> like:

> >    * Unit tests for OpenJPA

> >    * Downloading OpenJPA software

> >    * OpenJPA is distributed under Apache License 2.0

> >    * How is OpenJPA implemented?

> >    * Apache OpenJPA integrates with Apache Tomcat.

> >    * The sixth iteration of OpenJPA is complete!

> >

> > ...and lots of other casual uses that engineers should be able to utter

> with

> > ease and complete freedom.

> >

> > 5. At the bottom, in small but not invisible letters, include all the

> > appropriate copyright and trademark and licensing notices to assert that

> ASF

> > is the owner of whatever intellectual property we claim. To be polite,

> you

> > can identify that "Java is a trademark of Sun Microsystems (or Oracle)."

> >

> > /Larry

> >

> >

> >

> >> -----Original Message-----

> >> From: Craig.Russell@Sun.COM [mailto:Craig.Russell@Sun.COM]

> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 11:46 AM

> >> To: lrosen@rosenlaw.com

> >> Cc: 'ASF PRC Team'; dev@openjpa.apache.org

> >> Subject: Re: Apache trademarks on OpenJPA web site

> >>

> >> Hi Larry,

> >>

> >> On May 18, 2009, at 9:58 PM, Lawrence Rosen wrote:

> >>

> >>> Craig Russell complained:

> >> First, let me be clear. I'm not complaining. I'm trying to understand

> >> just what we need to do in our public face to be compliant with an

> >> Apache policy that allows Apache to promote and enforce our marks.

> >>

> >> My questions really are just questions. They are not rhetorical or

> >> argumentative. Please don't read any belligerence into the questions.

> >>>> You've reminded me of the trademark rules that have given most

> >>>> engineers angina: that trademarks are not nouns but adjectives. This

> >>>> little trick is what makes normal text look like legalese once

> >>>> lawyers

> >>>> get hold of it.

> >>> I'm aware of the pain that causes, and I don't want to turn Apache

> >>> web pages

> >>> into legalese.

> >>>

> >>> The first major use of a trademark on a web page ought to be, in

> >>> some way, a

> >>> combination of the trademark as an adjective modifying the

> >>> "official" noun.

> >> The trouble for OpenJPA is that there's no "official" noun. "Software"

> >> is certainly an appropriate noun, as are "program", "library",

> >> "package", and "implementation". So should we choose for each project

> >> an official noun and be consistent with its "first use" on each web

> >> page?

> >>> That is so you can educate your readers about your trademark and your

> >>> product. But it needn't be in sentence form, nor even contain words

> >>> in their

> >>> normal English usages or sequence. There are lots of creative ways to

> >>> introduce trademarks to the public.

> >>>

> >>> So I totally approve of your "OpenJPA is Apache's implementation of

> >>> Sun's

> >>> Java Persistence API (JPA) specification for the transparent

> >>> persistence of

> >>> Java objects."

> >> This confuses me. The use of OpenJPA here seems like a noun.

> >>>

> >>> You needn't say "OpenJPA software" since you said "OpenJPA

> >>> implementation".

> >> Not exactly. It doesn't say "OpenJPA implementation is Apache's

> >> implementation". It would actually sound better to me to say "OpenJPA

> >> software is Apache's implementation."

> >>

> >> So if it's not a noun, it would never be ok to say "OpenJPA is

> >> <something>". It would have to be "OpenJPA Software is <something>."

> >>> They sort of mean the same thing, I think. I'd want you to be more

> >>> precise

> >>> if I intended to file a trademark registration with the USPTO, but

> >>> for a

> >>> common law trademark, I think that works just fine. Maybe I'd ask that

> >>> somewhere you say "click here to download Apache OpenJPA software."

> >> That's easy to do once we understand the rules.

> >>

> >>> But otherwise, don't change that website.

> >>>

> >>> What I objected to in my previous email was the first sentence on your

> >>> http://openjpa.apache.org/unit-tests.html page, "OpenJPA's unit

> >>> tests are

> >>> written using JUnit." That sentence doesn't give anyone a clue what

> >>> noun the

> >>> adjective OpenJPA modifies. Nor have I ever seen an apostrophe-s on an

> >>> English adjective. :-)

> >> Right, back to our noun versus adjective. The sentence doesn't make

> >> sense with OpenJPA as an adjective. As an adjective, it could be

> >> "OpenJPA unit tests", since part of the OpenJPA implementation

> >> consists of unit tests. But OpenJPA is not just unit tests. It's also

> >> a functional piece of software.

> >>

> >> But our official documentation is full of "OpenJPA as noun" and not

> >> "OpenJPA as adjective". So I'm really struggling with whether it's

> >> just the "first use" on a page that needs to use OpenJPA Software or

> >> not.

> >>>

> >>> /Larry (with my English teacher hat on that I dug out of the very

> >>> back of my

> >>> closet)

> >>>

> >>>> -----Original Message-----

> >>>> From: Craig.Russell@Sun.COM [mailto:Craig.Russell@Sun.COM]

> >>>> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 2:10 PM

> >>>> To: lrosen@rosenlaw.com

> >>>> Cc: 'ASF PRC Team'; dev@openjpa.apache.org

> >>>> Subject: Re: Apache trademarks on OpenJPA web site

> >>>>

> >>>> Hi Larry,

> >>>>

> >>>> On May 18, 2009, at 10:45 AM, Lawrence Rosen wrote:

> >>>>

> >>>>> 3. Trademarks should be used as adjectives, not nouns. So the

> >>>>> following

> >>>>> sentence is incorrect trademark usage: "OpenJPA's unit tests are

> >>>>> written

> >>>>> using JUnit." Consider rewriting as "Unit tests for Apache OpenJPA

> >>>>> persistence project software are written using the JUnit testing

> >>>>> framework."

> >>>>> Always assume that customers have to be taught to associate the

> >>>>> trademark

> >>>>> with the noun in modifies. Once they've done that in their minds,

> >>>>> then you

> >>>>> have a very valuable trademark.

> >>>>>

> >>>>> /Larry

> >>>>>

> >>>> You've reminded me of the trademark rules that have given most

> >>>> engineers angina: that trademarks are not nouns but adjectives. This

> >>>> little trick is what makes normal text look like legalese once

> >>>> lawyers

> >>>> get hold of it.

> >>>>

> >>>> Where we say "OpenJPA is Apache's implementation of Sun's Java

> >>>> Persistence API (JPA) specification for the transparent persistence

> >>>> of

> >>>> Java objects. This document provides an overview of the JPA standard

> >>>> and technical details on the use of OpenJPA." we would have to say,

> >>>> instead, "OpenJPA software is Apache's implementation of Sun's Java

> >>>> Persistence API (JPA) specification for the transparent persistence

> >>>> of

> >>>> Java objects. This document provides an overview of the JPA standard

> >>>> and technical details on the use of OpenJPA software."

> >>>>

> >>>> Did I get this right?

> >>>>

> >>>> Thanks,

> >>>>

> >>>> Craig

> >>>>>

> >>>>>

> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----

> >>>>>> From: Craig.Russell@Sun.COM [mailto:Craig.Russell@Sun.COM]

> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 8:49 AM

> >>>>>> To: ASF PRC Team

> >>>>>> Cc: dev@openjpa.apache.org

> >>>>>> Subject: Apache trademarks on OpenJPA web site

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Hi PRC,

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> We've finished updating the OpenJPA web site master pages to

> >>>>>> include

> >>>>>> Apache trademarks in an obvious but not obtrusive way.

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> http://openjpa.apache.org/unit-tests.html is an example.

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Please let us know if this is in accordance with the current

> >>>>>> trademark

> >>>>>> notice policy.

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Thanks,

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Craig

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Craig L Russell

> >>>>>> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo

> >>>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com

> >>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!

> >>>>>

> >>>> Craig L Russell

> >>>> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo

> >>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com

> >>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!

> >>>

> >> Craig L Russell

> >> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo

> >> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com

> >> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!

> >

> >

> >


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