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From Tom Barber <tom.bar...@meteorite.bi>
Subject Re: OODT Website Changes (Redux)
Date Wed, 06 Apr 2016 07:59:32 GMT
Thanks chaps, like I said, just playing around with some layouting ideas.

I guess, knowing how long it took me to get an understanding of OODT and
what it can do for business users, that I want to make sure drive by
visitors can get an understanding as to what OODT can do for them, without
them getting thoroughly lost in a minefield of acronyms and text.

Chris mentioned no one apart from me has a massive need to rewrite the
website, I agree, and its hardly a surprise, you all come from a scientific
background and use the platform regularly, you're also consumers so your
outlook on the project is different.

When I took over the chair from SK, my unofficial aim was to use this chair
period to try and get the business users involved, my day job requires me
to drive users to our product and get them interested enough to test it,
whilst OODT isn't commercial, ultimately the goal is the same, to gain
users and community members, we need users, and we need users who don't
just work in the scientific domain. Whilst the odd person might swing by
the mailing list, in reality, 99% of users will land on the homepage, and
that is the determining factor as to whether they bother to investigate
further. Which is why I spend a lot of time prioritising stuff that doesn't
really make a lot of sense to the rest of you! :)

I'm not asking you folks to actually do anything, just as long as there in
consensus and agreement, that is good enough, but similarly I don't want to
spend ages doing something that will get undone, which is why this
discussion is taking place.

---

Lewis, good to hear about the mobile stuff, I hadn't got that far yet,
bootstrap should keep it pretty much cross device compatible, but these
things always take a bit of tweaking.

Tom

On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 1:08 AM, Lewis John Mcgibbney <
lewis.mcgibbney@gmail.com> wrote:

> Rendering beautifully on mobile. This is neat as.
>
> On Tuesday, April 5, 2016, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
> chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
> > LOVE the style and of course GH pages and the work there
> > is superior to the CMS.
> >
> > Let’s explore this..great start.
> >
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
> > Chief Architect
> > Instrument Software and Science Data Systems Section (398)
> > NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
> > Office: 168-519, Mailstop: 168-527
> > Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov <javascript:;>
> > WWW:  http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > Director, Information Retrieval and Data Science Group (IRDS)
> > Adjunct Associate Professor, Computer Science Department
> > University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
> > WWW: http://irds.usc.edu/
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 4/5/16, 7:06 PM, "Tom Barber" <tom.barber@meteorite.bi
> <javascript:;>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Okay, spent an hour hacking around ideas tonight, just to get a feel for
> > >things.
> > >
> > >http://buggtb.github.io/oodt-website/
> > >
> > >I've only messed around with a frontpage and basic blog listing. You can
> > >see what i'm trying to do in breaking it up a bunch, I still want to do
> > >make the text easier to digest, its all a bit "wordy" for a front page,
> > but
> > >broken up with an architecture diagram I stole from one of Chris' slides
> > >gives non users a quick visual representation of what it is.
> > >
> > >Of course I could have done that in CMS, but I can assure you it was 100
> > >times quicker locally and pushing the changes up, but as I discussed the
> > >other day that's not the whole reason, as I was wanting something that
> > >makes it easier for non technical users to contribute news and blog
> stuff
> > >to.
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/buggtb/oodt-website/master/_posts/2016-01-04-oodt-011-released.md
> > >
> > >
> > >They are pretty straightforward, and as we found the other day, there
> is a
> > >github based editor for these things for those who don't want to mess
> with
> > >markdown. You can also submit blog posts in html and they'll be rendered
> > >just fine.
> > >
> > >I'm not trying to undo the work that was done during the rewrite and
> Chris
> > >mentioned his affection for SK's old site, I liked it to, my only gripe
> > >with that was the inability for easy fixes from users! Which is resolved
> > >sorta with CMS but personally I think its even easier for users with a
> > >github fork -> PR setup, which is basically what would happen with
> > >gitsubpub.
> > >
> > >https://github.com/buggtb/oodt-website
> > >
> > >I'll probably leave it at that for a while, I just wanted to play with
> > some
> > >stuff and share it back.
> > >
> > >Tom
> > >
> > >On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 10:02 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
> > >chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Understood, OK Tom.
> > >>
> > >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > >> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
> > >> Chief Architect
> > >> Instrument Software and Science Data Systems Section (398)
> > >> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
> > >> Office: 168-519, Mailstop: 168-527
> > >> Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov <javascript:;>
> > >> WWW:  http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
> > >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > >> Director, Information Retrieval and Data Science Group (IRDS)
> > >> Adjunct Associate Professor, Computer Science Department
> > >> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
> > >> WWW: http://irds.usc.edu/
> > >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 4/5/16, 12:10 PM, "Tom Barber" <tom.barber@meteorite.bi
> > <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >Yeah, I'm not suggesting we switch any time soon.
> > >> >
> > >> >My viewpoint is thus: we can do a better job with content, look and
> > feel
> > >> >and the maintenance side.
> > >> >
> > >> >Personally, I find the CMS hard to use, maybe its just me, who knows.
> > So,
> > >> >my suggestion is purely do some POC work to come up with what may,
or
> > may
> > >> >not be a better solution. If the workflow and tech is acceptable,
> then
> > >> >build out the site in the new tech, it can be demoed on GH pages or
> > >> >wherever in the interim, and finally, when we're happy with the
> > content,
> > >> >the theme and the ability to update it, then... and only then do we
> > change
> > >> >it.
> > >> >
> > >> >From my own opinion, I want to put some more free time into improving
> > the
> > >> >site, but I feel that it would be a much quicker and more efficient
> > >> process
> > >> >if the stuff wasn't inside CMS, that is all.
> > >> >
> > >> >Tom
> > >> >
> > >> >On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Chris Mattmann <
> > chris.mattmann@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> > >> >wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> Tom, my comment here is that we tried to do the exact
> > >> >> same thing in Summer 2014 on XDATA. Just note that
> > >> >> “dummy site” is now what we have in our operational
> > >> >> site for Apache OODT. I think we have just only recently
> > >> >> come to a point where it’s more stable (we don’t have
> > >> >> people like Sebb coming externally saying our links don’t
> > >> >> work).
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Now you are proposing to change the site again, which
> > >> >> design wise is fine by me (though shows how much I know
> > >> >> since I liked SK’s old site even - and the new site started
> > >> >> by the next generation also looks nice too). However,
> > >> >> stability wise it’s not fine by me unless *the entire site*
> > >> >> is migrated, and until we run a link checker against it
> > >> >> long before turning on the switch to move over to it.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> No one is clamoring for a website redesign - it’s mostly
> > >> >> been discussion led by you and commented on by Val, and
> > >> >> Lewis.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> My 2c.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Cheers,
> > >> >> Chris
> > >> >>
> > >> >> —
> > >> >> Chris Mattmann
> > >> >> chris.mattmann@gmail.com <javascript:;>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> On 4/5/16, 8:55 AM, "Tom Barber" <tom.barber@meteorite.bi
> > <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >Okay here's what I propose. Apache CMS will be retired, not
any
> time
> > >> >> soon, but at some point in the medium term future. ASF Infra offer
> > >> >> gitsubpub/svnsubpub as the standard for website publishing and
> we(I?)
> > >> want
> > >> >> something more useable for non webdevs. Thats not necessarily
code
> > free,
> > >> >> but certainly an easy process for people to upload new content.
> > >> >> >My suggestion is that I knock up a dummy replacement site
in
> Jekyll,
> > >> that
> > >> >> migrates across a couple of the pages and some dummy blog content,
> > and
> > >> I'll
> > >> >> come back and demonstrate the user publishing flow, at which point
> we
> > >> can
> > >> >> have a discussion as to whether its something we pursue, or not.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Sound like a plan?
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Of course in the mean time, if anyone else has any suggestions
> for a
> > >> >> "dynamic" static website, speak up!
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Tom
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Tom Barber <
> > tom.barber@meteorite.bi <javascript:;>>
> > >> >> wrote:
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Indeed Val
> > >> >> >Ease of use is something I'm trying to achieve because it
makes it
> > >> easier
> > >> >> for everyone to help maintain our resources with minimum effort.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >In Jekyll (if that was a chosen solution Markdown is entirely
> > optional,
> > >> >> you can just as easily publish HTML content as markdown, I just
> > >> mentioned
> > >> >> it as an easy barrier to get people to write blog posts, but there
> > are a
> > >> >> bunch of HTML generating apps on the market, of you could use
the
> WP
> > >> >> editor, and hit the source button and copy the content from WP
to
> > >> Jekyll,
> > >> >> not great always the most obvious workflow, but would do the job.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Also, not tried it, but Prose.io gives you a MD WYSIWYG editor
for
> > >> >> github, so assuming we were running the fork -> pull request
model,
> > you
> > >> >> could edit the OODT site using Prose on Github and just push over
a
> > pull
> > >> >> request with the changes made.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Prose seems to support basic formatting and inserting of images,
> > once a
> > >> >> website template is designed I would expect contributers to do
any
> > more
> > >> >> anyway, unless they wanted to, content should be about writing
a
> blog
> > >> post
> > >> >> of page and hitting the go button.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >A quick google also reveals some Word to Markdown tools, I've
not
> > used
> > >> >> them either, but I guess they would do a job.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Tom
> > >> >> >​
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 1:30 AM, Mallder, Valerie <
> > >> >> Valerie.Mallder@jhuapl.edu <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >You are absolutely right, in markdown you would be missing
images.
> > My
> > >> >> objection to using markdown is having to learn a new language
> syntax
> > for
> > >> >> styling the text. I have no objection to having a static site.
I
> just
> > >> want
> > >> >> it to be easy to use and not require that you have to spend time
> > >> learning
> > >> >> something new. If it takes too much time to do (because you have
to
> > >> learn
> > >> >> some new stuff in order to do it) you may find that people will
put
> > it
> > >> on
> > >> >> their todo list but never end up getting to it because they are
too
> > busy
> > >> >> working on higher priority tasks in their day jobs. I think your
> > primary
> > >> >> goal (when choosing what you want to do) should be to add as little
> > >> work as
> > >> >> possible to people's plates. That's all. If there are any WYSIWYG
> > >> editors
> > >> >> out there that have the option to do a "save as" to markdown format
> > that
> > >> >> would be optimal. But I don't know if there are any.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Sent with Good (www.good.com <http://www.good.com>)
> > >> >> >________________________________
> > >> >> >From: Tom Barber <tom.barber@meteorite.bi <javascript:;>>
> > >> >> >Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2016 7:17:42 PM
> > >> >> >To: dev@oodt.apache.org <javascript:;>
> > >> >> >Subject: Re: OODT Website Changes (Redux)
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Also, (playing devils advocate) if it's a word doc why can't
you
> > just
> > >> copy
> > >> >> >and paste it into a markdown file?  The only major thing you'd
be
> > >> missing
> > >> >> >is any images :)
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Another plus to a static blogging site is, if you decide it
sucks
> > in a
> > >> few
> > >> >> >years time,  you just have some html to move somewhere else,
 it's
> > >> just a
> > >> >> >static website,  if you decide WordPress sucked or infra said
> they'd
> > >> host
> > >> >> >it, then down the line changed their mind,  you'd have a much
> bigger
> > >> task
> > >> >> >on your hands.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Tom
> > >> >> >On 3 Apr 2016 00:07, "Tom Barber" <tom.barber@meteorite.bi
> > <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >> Hey Val,
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> You can write HTML and a bunch of other stuff, but I'm
trying to
> > >> offer
> > >> >> up
> > >> >> >> a solution that is easy for people to deploy and develop
on
> > outside
> > >> of
> > >> >> the
> > >> >> >> Apache infrastructure, and markdown, being just text
is easy to
> > >> deploy.
> > >> >> >> Also Wordpress etc require databases and backing infra
where as
> > >> Jekyll
> > >> >> is
> > >> >> >> purely static HTML by the time it is deployed.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> I have no idea if Infra would support wordpress anyway,
I doubt
> > it,
> > >> when
> > >> >> >> they said they were retiring Apache CMS, it wasn't like
"oh but
> > don't
> > >> >> worry
> > >> >> >> folks, you can stand up a wordpress website", I could
be wrong,
> > but
> > >> that
> > >> >> >> was my impression.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> At the end of a day, creating a blog post that looks
like:
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >>
> >
> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/maciakl/Sample-Jekyll-Site/master/_posts/2012-02-10-code-snippets.markdown
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> is much quicker than writing a bunch of HTML, but the
Apache CMS
> > is
> > >> >> also a
> > >> >> >> bit of a lie, because if you think you don't have to
write HTML
> > >> because
> > >> >> its
> > >> >> >> a CMS, you're sorely mistaken! ;)
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Tom
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 12:00 AM, Mallder, Valerie <
> > >> >> >> Valerie.Mallder@jhuapl.edu <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>> I am not familiar with Jekyll, but I disagree with
using
> > markdown.
> > >> Why
> > >> >> >>> must we write in any kind of markup language? That
would suck.
> > Why
> > >> not
> > >> >> just
> > >> >> >>> use a better CMS? There are plenty out there. I personally
> > develop
> > >> >> websites
> > >> >> >>> in Wordpress. It's free and very easy to use. You
can edit
> posts
> > in
> > >> a
> > >> >> >>> WYSIWYG editor. You can also copy-paste from a Word
doc into
> the
> > >> post.
> > >> >> Just
> > >> >> >>> my opinion.
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >>> Sent with Good (www.good.com <http://www.good.com><
> > >> http://www.good.com
> > >> >> >)
> > >> >> >>> ________________________________
> > >> >> >>> From: Tom Barber <tom.barber@meteorite.bi <javascript:;>>
> > >> >> >>> Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2016 6:45:21 PM
> > >> >> >>> To: dev@oodt.apache.org <javascript:;>
> > >> >> >>> Subject: OODT Website Changes (Redux)
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>> Alright folks,
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>> Most peope who have been on the list for a while
know we moved
> > from
> > >> the
> > >> >> >>> most static of static websites to Apache CMS a while
ago to
> allow
> > >> for
> > >> >> more
> > >> >> >>> regular updating and maintenance of the website.
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>> Lewis then put a bunch of work into creating a template
for the
> > CMS
> > >> >> >>> website
> > >> >> >>> and we revamped a lot of the content, but the CMS
has a bunch
> of
> > >> issues
> > >> >> >>> both in the ease of developing a website and also
in
> maintenance
> > so
> > >> the
> > >> >> >>> Infra team are retiring it.
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>> My personal opinion(having done some of this in my
day job, and
> > >> >> discussed
> > >> >> >>> similar on some other ASF projects) is we migrate
the website
> to
> > >> >> gitsubpub
> > >> >> >>> and Jekyll.
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>> This will give us the ability to easily stand up
the existing
> > >> website
> > >> >> on
> > >> >> >>> our own laptops, or development servers make changes
and deploy
> > >> them.
> > >> >> Also
> > >> >> >>> without the templating system that Apache CMS enforces
upon
> you,
> > >> its  a
> > >> >> >>> far
> > >> >> >>> quicker development cycle.
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>> Of course we could just use standard HTML & Javascript,
but
> part
> > of
> > >> the
> > >> >> >>> reason I'd like to use Jekyll is the fact users can
create
> > content
> > >> >> using
> > >> >> >>> Markdown syntax instead of HTML and Javascript. Jekyll
is a
> > static
> > >> >> >>> blogging
> > >> >> >>> platform, so its designed for frequent updating,
and as people
> > may
> > >> have
> > >> >> >>> noticed I've been blogging OODT stuff on my personal
blog
> because
> > >> the
> > >> >> CMS
> > >> >> >>> is a pain to update.
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>> Has anyone got an opinion? It feels like we did stage
one which
> > was
> > >> >> make
> > >> >> >>> the website easier to update, but stage two is to
make the
> > process a
> > >> >> lot
> > >> >> >>> easier, and standardised.
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>> Cheers
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>> Tom
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >>
> >
>
>
> --
> *Lewis*
>

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