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From Scott Gray <scott.g...@hotwaxmedia.com>
Subject Re: [VOTE] PROJECTMGR in upcoming release
Date Thu, 02 Oct 2014 19:02:00 GMT
Surely the first step in considering a specialized component for sub-project creation would
be the level of activity surrounding the component?

Looking at the history of the projectmgr component I see 12 commits in the last TWO years
8 of which were global changes that coincidentally happened to touch on that component (translation
work, global refactorings etc.).  This leaves only 4 commits specific to the component and
even those are minor UI adjustments.

To be considered as a potential sub-project I would expect to see a hive of activity around
that component with contributors specializing in solid contributions to further enhance it.
 "Build it and they will come" is not a valid approach to sub-project creation.

If this component is so important to some of you, why are you not contributing to its enhancement?

Regards
Scott

On 3/10/2014, at 2:56 am, Ron Wheeler <rwheeler@artifact-software.com> wrote:

> Of course, I see a lot of benefit in the Apache approach of sub-projects but perhaps
the current group of committers should take some time to consider this and talk to the Apache
Mentors assigned to the project as well as some of the project chairpersons from projects
where sub-projects are in use.
> 
> One of the advantages of being an Apache project is that there are many things for which
there is an "Apache Way" and there are people in the broader Apache community that can provide
information and guidance.
> 
> To Jacopo's point about trust.
> I may trust someone to do one thing but not another.
> I may trust someone with a critical task that I would not entrust to another person who
might be technically capable of doing it.
> 
> As a project manager, I may trust someone to work on a particular part of an application
but not on the data access.
> 
> For the project to grow, the people working on the framework are going to have to get
used to the idea that total strangers will be committing code to the project.
> The sub-project structure allows this to happen in a controlled way.
> 
> It also allows sub-projects to attract the "right" mix of people which would be a totally
different set of skills than the Framework project would want.
> Each sub-project will develop a team personality based on the sub-project's mission and
the type of people required to implement the mission.
> I would expect the framework sub-project to be "hard core" technical people who know
a lot about databases, security, entity modeling whereas the e-Commerce team will have people
who are very knowledgeable about taxation, payment system integration, shopping cart design,
user experience, and end-user documentation.
> The Project Management sub-project will attract people who know a lot about billing for
consulting companies, accounting firms and legal offices as well project management, workflow,
issue tracking, user interfaces, web services, etc.
> I would expect some overlap since many of the people here are very senior and have skills
in multiple areas but I suspect that most new people will start in one sub-project and "cut
their teeth" there before joining another.
> 
> If it is done right it also makes everyone's job a lot easier and should reduce the amount
of ML traffic for each person.
> 
> 
> Ron
> 
> 
> On 02/10/2014 9:22 AM, Jacopo Cappellato wrote:
>> In my opinion we should avoid reconsidering the idea of creating committers with
limited access; instead I would prefer to invite committers when we trust them as individuals,
when they have demonstrated the right attitude and skills to work in our community etc...
and demonstrate enough technical skills for the work they have to do; even if it is limited
to a subset of the OFBiz codebase they will get full access to the repos but of course they
will limit their field of action to the area they know, without requiring us to enforce commit
rights limitations. As I said this can only work if we trust them 100% as persons at first.
>> 
>> Jacopo
>> 
>> On Oct 2, 2014, at 2:30 PM, Jacques Le Roux <jacques.le.roux@les7arts.com>
wrote:
>> 
>>> That's an interesting idea.
>>> 
>>> Now it also means more administration and we are already a bit sparse on the
volunteering front.
>>> 
>>> A simpler solution the OFBiz project used was to allow write access to only parts
of the repo.
>>> This was before the Apache era. We gave up this way of doing because it was not
the Apache way.
>>> 
>>> I have not read it all yet but for instance I read in https://community.apache.org/newcommitter.html
>>> <<There may be extraordinary cases where we want limited work-related commit
access. This will be resolved during the vote discussion. >>
>>> 
>>> I don't know how technically this is possible in OFBiz trunk and branches, apart
maybe asking the infra team? Which would most probably faces a veto...
>>> 
>>> Jacques
>>> 
>>> Le 01/10/2014 16:46, Ron Wheeler a écrit :
>>>> The sub-project is a very useful Apache tool for helping projects grow.
>>>> http://db.apache.org/newproject.html  is interesting reading.
>>>> http://ant.apache.org/antlibs/ very minimal description about Ant sub-projects
but we all use their work.
>>>> http://lucene.472066.n3.nabble.com/Close-of-Apache-Lucene-s-Open-Relevance-sub-project-td4141160.html
a note about the official closure of a sub-project - very clear about why and what closure
means.
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_Ivy  another popular sub-project. Description
implies that it started in incubation and graduated to a top-level package and then became
a sub-project of Ant.
>>>> http://icodebythesea.blogspot.ca/2009/04/apache-servicemix-kernel-subproject.html
is an example of a sub-project moving between two top-level projects.
>>>> 
>>>> The sub-project structure allows for more specialization within the project
resources so that people who are wizards with databases, kernels, etc get to worry about data
access, performance, scalability, reliability, security while others who have more domain
interest get to worry about features, usability, graphic design, workflow, reporting without
getting in each other's hair.
>>>> 
>>>> It also ensures a clearer demarcation between framework, core ERP and modules.
>>>> I suspect that it would clean up project communication since people could
subscribe to the sub-project lists that pertained to their interests.
>>>> 
>>>> It might be easier for the existing community to accept new committers if
the new people were part of a sub-project and were not committing to the particular codebase
(framework, core, etc.) that the current committers are working on.
>>>> 
>>>> It probably would help clarify the documentation since there would be a much
clearer separation of framework from core from modules since each sub-project would have its
own section in the project documentation.
>>>> Each sub-project would have a much better defined target audience so writing
docs would be a bit simpler and the language and terminology could be more relevant to the
target audience.
>>>> 
>>>> Ron
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 01/10/2014 10:17 AM, Pierre Smits wrote:
>>>>> Ron,
>>>>> 
>>>>> In the past there was a WIKI page decribing who was interested and who
was willing to work on what. I don't know whether that page still exists.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In the past we also had a system of having committers dedicated and committed
to a subset of the trunk. This should still be feasible. But for that you need more committers.
And to get more committers, this project needs to solicit and accept more.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Pierre Smits
>>>>> 
>>>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>>>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>>>> Services and Retail & Trade
>>>>> http://www.orrtiz.com <http://www.orrtiz.com/>
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 4:10 PM, Ron Wheeler <rwheeler@artifact-software.com
<mailto:rwheeler@artifact-software.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>    A defined method of deciding what moves from the trunk to a
>>>>>    release would solve this.
>>>>>    Back to my previous comment about 1 person to test and 1 person to
>>>>>    fix bugs (could be the same person I suppose) would be a good
>>>>>    starting minimum.
>>>>> 
>>>>>    Ron
>>>>> 
>>>>>    On 01/10/2014 2:56 AM, Pierre Smits wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>        The excuse of using PROJECTMgr in an older branch (12.x, the
>>>>>        latest stable
>>>>>        release) and testing it against trunk and therefor not
>>>>>        including it in a
>>>>>        release of a newer branch, is a lame one.
>>>>> 
>>>>>        We are diligent about this, meaning that we do follow up
>>>>>        against any
>>>>>        potential new release branch in order to be able to migrate to
>>>>>        the newer
>>>>>        branch when there is something released.
>>>>> 
>>>>>        Pierre Smits
>>>>> 
>>>>>        *ORRTIZ.COM <http://ORRTIZ.COM> <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>>>>>        Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>>>>        Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>>>>        Services and Retail & Trade
>>>>>        http://www.orrtiz.com
>>>>> 
>>>>>        On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 7:45 AM, Jacopo Cappellato <
>>>>>        jacopo.cappellato@hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>        <mailto:jacopo.cappellato@hotwaxmedia.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>            The fact that someone is using it in an older branch and
>>>>>            testing it in
>>>>>            trunk is not enough to guarantee it works well with 13.07;
>>>>>            the trunk and
>>>>>            13.07 are very different codebases.
>>>>>            Additionally, the "projectmgr" component has 0 unit tests;
>>>>>            I am not sure
>>>>>            about about its stability, but for example comments in
>>>>>            code like the
>>>>>            following don't make me feel super confident:
>>>>> 
>>>>>            <!-- temporary disabled because it caused a db lock with
the
>>>>>            checkProjectMembership in projectpermission services -->
>>>>> 
>>>>>            One more point to note: since the component has not been
>>>>>            in the 13.07
>>>>>            branch, it didn't undergo the 1-year long stabilization
>>>>>            phase where only
>>>>>            bug-fixes are backported: for example, one month ago, with
>>>>>            revision
>>>>>            1618313, it was modified by a big commit to replace a
>>>>>            series of Freemarker
>>>>>            built-ins operation that we decided to not backport to
>>>>>            13.07 but only keep
>>>>>            in the trunk.
>>>>> 
>>>>>            Jacopo
>>>>> 
>>>>>            On Sep 30, 2014, at 11:19 PM, Ron Wheeler
>>>>>            <rwheeler@artifact-software.com
>>>>>            <mailto:rwheeler@artifact-software.com>>
>>>>>            wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>                So, as far as is known from Pierre's testing, there is
>>>>>                no work required
>>>>> 
>>>>>            to "stabilize and bug fix" the module prior to including
>>>>>            it in 13.07.01?
>>>>> 
>>>>>                Anyone else have any comments on the work required to
>>>>>                include it in
>>>>> 
>>>>>            13.07.01?
>>>>> 
>>>>>                Ron
>>>>> 
>>>>>                On 30/09/2014 5:13 PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>                    Ron, All,
>>>>> 
>>>>>                    We use the latest released branch, meaning 12.x.
>>>>>                    We don't expose our
>>>>>                    customers to an unstable unreleased branch, that
>>>>>                    is still undergoing
>>>>>                    significant changes.
>>>>> 
>>>>>                    But, we test our solutions against trunk. This
>>>>>                    enables us to identify
>>>>>                    issues and register them in JIRA. And supply
>>>>>                    patches when workload
>>>>> 
>>>>>            allows
>>>>> 
>>>>>                    it.
>>>>> 
>>>>>                    So yes, PROJECTMGR, SCRUM, etc work also in r13.x
>>>>> 
>>>>>                    Regards,
>>>>> 
>>>>>                    Pierre Smits
>>>>> 
>>>>>                    *ORRTIZ.COM <http://ORRTIZ.COM>
>>>>>                    <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>>>>>                    Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>>>>                    Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>>>>                    Services and Retail & Trade
>>>>>                    http://www.orrtiz.com
>>>>> 
>>>>>                    On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 10:22 PM, Ron Wheeler <
>>>>>                    rwheeler@artifact-software.com
>>>>> <mailto:rwheeler@artifact-software.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>                        Are you using it with a 12.04 or 13.xx?
>>>>>                        What work is required to get it into 13.07?
>>>>> 
>>>>>                        Ron
>>>>>                        On 30/09/2014 3:06 PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>                            Yes, I also have a vested interest in
>>>>>                            keeping this (PROJECTMGR) in the
>>>>>                            releases. It is part of our ORRTIZ:COM
>>>>>                            solution portfolio for our
>>>>>                            customers
>>>>>                            and we use it internally. And I have
>>>>>                            contributed to the improvement
>>>>> 
>>>>>            of the
>>>>> 
>>>>>                            component.
>>>>> 
>>>>>                            We, at ORRTIZ:COM, even use an extension
>>>>>                            to the code base to ensure
>>>>> 
>>>>>            that
>>>>> 
>>>>>                            it
>>>>>                            also works for fixed price and internal
>>>>>                            projects. This extension
>>>>> 
>>>>>            includes
>>>>> 
>>>>>                            generating the gl transactions regarding
>>>>>                            the cost price of each hour
>>>>>                            registered regarding a project.
>>>>> 
>>>>>                            We also use the LDAP component to connect
>>>>>                            to our directory server
>>>>> 
>>>>>            (Apache
>>>>> 
>>>>>                            Directory Server).
>>>>> 
>>>>>                            Regards,
>>>>> 
>>>>>                            Pierre Smits
>>>>> 
>>>>>                            *ORRTIZ.COM <http://ORRTIZ.COM>
>>>>>                            <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>>>>>                            Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>>>>                            Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>>>>                            Services and Retail & Trade
>>>>>                            http://www.orrtiz.com
>>>>> 
>>>>>                            On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Ron Wheeler
>>>>> 
>>>>>            <rwheeler@artifact-software.
>>>>> 
>>>>>                            com
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                wrote:
>>>>>                                It would be for me since it is one of
>>>>>                                the components that I want to
>>>>> 
>>>>>            use.
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                Perhaps the more knowledgeable people
>>>>>                                might want to share a bit more
>>>>> 
>>>>>            of
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                the background of the feature.
>>>>>                                Is it in 12.xx.xx?
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                Is it currently in the 13.07 branch
>>>>>                                and therefor currently part of
>>>>> 
>>>>>            the
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                13.07 versions that people have put in
>>>>>                                production or is it just in
>>>>> 
>>>>>            the
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                trunk that people are putting into
>>>>>                                production?
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                What are the issues that need to be
>>>>>                                addressed before it is
>>>>> 
>>>>>            "stabilized
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                and
>>>>>                                bug fixed"?
>>>>>                                Do any of these issues pose a
>>>>>                                significant risk to the stability of
>>>>> 
>>>>>            the
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                rest of the functionality?
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                Is anyone using it in production? What
>>>>>                                are their opinions of the
>>>>> 
>>>>>            state of
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                the code and the degree of risk?
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                Is anyone prepared to take on the task
>>>>>                                of getting it "stabilized and
>>>>> 
>>>>>            bug
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                fixed" to a point where it can be
>>>>>                                safely included?
>>>>>                                What is the estimate of the minimum
>>>>>                                effort required?
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                Ron
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                On 30/09/2014 9:58 AM, Mike wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                  Why not deploy it as another
>>>>>                                hot-deploy component?   Is it
>>>>> 
>>>>>            considered a
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                    "core" ERP component?
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                    On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 2:59 AM,
>>>>>                                    Pierre Smits <
>>>>> 
>>>>>            pierre.smits@gmail.com <mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com>>
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                    wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                       Jacopo,
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                        Back then there were already
>>>>>                                        strong objections to excluding
>>>>> 
>>>>>            components
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                        from
>>>>>                                        the release. I recall that
>>>>>                                        Hans also wanted to keep the SCRUM
>>>>> 
>>>>>            component
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                        in
>>>>>                                        the release, as well as there
>>>>>                                        were proponents for BIRT and other
>>>>>                                        components.
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                        These are good additions to
>>>>>                                        the feature set of OFBiz and
>>>>>                                        may be in
>>>>> 
>>>>>            use
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                        already by community members.
>>>>>                                        It would be best that you
>>>>>                                        solicit the
>>>>>                                        advice
>>>>>                                        of the entire community before
>>>>>                                        a decision on excluding components
>>>>> 
>>>>>            from
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                        any
>>>>>                                        release is taken. This affects
>>>>>                                        more participants in this project
>>>>> 
>>>>>            than
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                        just
>>>>>                                        you and the committers.
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                        Regards,
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                        Pierre Smits
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                        *ORRTIZ.COM
>>>>> <http://ORRTIZ.COM>
>>>>> <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>>>>>                                        Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>>>>                                        Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>>>>                                        Services and Retail & Trade
>>>>>                                        http://www.orrtiz.com
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                        On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 11:49
>>>>>                                        AM, Jacopo Cappellato <
>>>>> jacopo.cappellato@hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>> <mailto:jacopo.cappellato@hotwaxmedia.com>>
>>>>>                                        wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                           Ok, got it.
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                            The release process that
>>>>>                                            the OFBiz community is
>>>>>                                            following is
>>>>> 
>>>>>            based on
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                            a
>>>>>                                            feature freeze phase, that
>>>>>                                            for the 13.07 branch
>>>>>                                            started more than
>>>>> 
>>>>>            one
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                              year
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                          ago, during which only bug
>>>>>                                        fixes are backported.
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                            This is done in order to
>>>>>                                            stabilize the branch
>>>>>                                            before an official
>>>>>                                            release
>>>>>                                            is done. Since the
>>>>>                                            "projectmgr" component has
>>>>>                                            never been part of
>>>>> 
>>>>>            the
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                              13.07
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                          branch then it may be unsafe
>>>>>                                        to include it now just before
the
>>>>> 
>>>>>            release
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                            is
>>>>>                                            issued. It would be better
>>>>>                                            to discuss its inclusion
>>>>>                                            in the
>>>>> 
>>>>>            upcoming
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                            new
>>>>>                                            release branch where it
>>>>>                                            could be stabilized and
>>>>>                                            bug fixed.
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                            Regards,
>>>>> 
>>>>>                                            Jacopo
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>    --     Ron Wheeler
>>>>>    President
>>>>>    Artifact Software Inc
>>>>>    email: rwheeler@artifact-software.com
>>>>>    <mailto:rwheeler@artifact-software.com>
>>>>>    skype: ronaldmwheeler
>>>>>    phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Ron Wheeler
> President
> Artifact Software Inc
> email: rwheeler@artifact-software.com
> skype: ronaldmwheeler
> phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102
> 


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