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From Scott Gray <scott.g...@hotwaxmedia.com>
Subject Re: OFBiz and Attitude & Trust
Date Tue, 21 Oct 2014 22:07:06 GMT
> I can image that you would feel that 'accept' is better than 'follow' with
> respect to advice. But it still sounds that you want a contributor to
> comply to your advice.

Then your interpretation is incorrect.  A willingness to discuss contentious changes with
an open mind is all I asked for.

> We are dealing with people here who can make sound
> judgement calls whether or not to accept and act accordingly. The
> participants within this community are not sheep.

No they aren't and I haven't said anything to imply that they are.

> You are making more of this than it should be.

I am?  I'm just trying to answer your questions, I'm really not making anything out of this.

> My advice to you is to relax your viewpoint on this and any contributor
> showing commitment to the project.

Are you saying we should accept contributors who aren't willing to discuss contentious changes
with an open mind?  That would seem strange to me.

One big issue with adding more committers is that we currently have a very low commit:review
ratio.  Reviewing commits and dealing with any ensuing discussion is a very time consuming
affair and very few existing committers and almost no contributors participate in that effort.
 Increasing the number of committers only increases that burden on the few reviewers we have
and leads to a situation where committers can make almost any changes they like without being
questioned.  This potentially decreases the quality of the code base and results in a less
maintainable and usable project.  The problem is only exacerbated if we have lots of committers
who aren't willing to discuss their work with an open mind.

Regards
Scott

On 22/10/2014, at 1:21 am, Pierre Smits <pierre.smits@gmail.com> wrote:

> Scott,
> 
> I can image that you would feel that 'accept' is better than 'follow' with
> respect to advice. But it still sounds that you want a contributor to
> comply to your advice. We are dealing with people here who can make sound
> judgement calls whether or not to accept and act accordingly. The
> participants within this community are not sheep.
> 
> You are making more of this than it should be. We have enough mitigating
> procedures in place for the occasional committer that doesn't comply to
> responsibilities outlined in the wiki page.
> 
> If you have trust issues you should propose changes to the wiki document.
> That way all participants in this project can increase their insights and
> express their viewpoint about how and when contributors should be
> considered and accepted or rejected by the PMC.
> 
> Remember, this is a project for everybody participating. That you have
> trust issues and therefor reject any committer who doesn't comply to your
> advice, shouldn't lead to an increasing number of issues not getting
> resolved. That way you are stifling the growth of our project.
> 
> My advice to you is to relax your viewpoint on this and any contributor
> showing commitment to the project.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Pierre Smits
> 
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
> 
> On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Scott Gray <scott.gray@hotwaxmedia.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> Perhaps "accept" is a better word than "follow", no one has ever
>> questioned it in such detail.
>> 
>> If there's disagreement about advice given then there only needs to be a
>> willingness to discuss the matter.  Obviously there are votes if things get
>> out of hand but it's rare for things to go that far.  If committers are
>> unwilling to approach a disagreement with an open mind then it makes life
>> difficult for everyone.
>> 
>> Regards
>> Scott
>> 
>> On 18/10/2014, at 1:04 am, Pierre Smits <pierre.smits@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Scott,
>>> 
>>> Am I correct in understanding that any contributor with ambitions to be a
>>> committer should interpret your 'willing to follow advice' as
>> 'willingness
>>> to take good advice into consideration when acting within the community
>> or
>>> dealing with issues, but don't follow bad advice blindly'? Your 'willing
>> to
>>> follow' sounds a lot like 'must follow'. I trust that wasn't your
>>> intention...
>>> 
>>> Or am I misinterpreting this?
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> Pierre Smits
>>> 
>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>> Services and Retail & Trade
>>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 1:11 PM, Scott Gray <scott.gray@hotwaxmedia.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> From my perspective the confluence document seems to outline everything
>>>> pretty well.
>>>> 
>>>> I think the 'trust' aspect would simply be that a voting PMC member is
>>>> able to trust that a potential committer would fulfill the the outlined
>>>> roles and responsibilities.  The 'attitude' would simply be that the
>>>> potential committer is willing to follow advice and work well with
>> others.
>>>> Neither of these things are so strange that they'd need to be further
>>>> documented IMO.
>>>> 
>>>> I can't speak for Jacopo or anyone else, that's just my interpretation.
>>>> 
>>>> Regards
>>>> Scott
>>>> 
>>>> On 17/10/2014, at 11:49 pm, Pierre Smits <pierre.smits@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> So, you - as any PMC member - can also elaborate on the consensus with
>>>>> respect to the attitude and trustability requirements regarding
>> potential
>>>>> committers (above and beyond the responsibilities, if these exist).
>>>>> 
>>>>> Or - as it may be possible that I have misinterpreted the posting by
>>>> Jacopo
>>>>> - is it just about potential committers having the right mindset
>> towards
>>>>> the execution of tasks as described in the roles and responsibilities
>>>>> document? Meaning that they can apply due diligence before committing?
>>>> And
>>>>> that they can make their own interests subordinate to those of the
>>>>> community?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Pierre Smits
>>>>> 
>>>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>>>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>>>> Services and Retail & Trade
>>>>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Scott Gray <
>> scott.gray@hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Pierre,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Yes, in his opinion that is what we do.  It's probably a correct
>> opinion
>>>>>> too (in my opinion).  But at the end of the day my point stands,
PMC
>>>>>> members are individuals and each have different opinions about what
>>>> makes a
>>>>>> good committer.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'm not trying to be combative, if you disagree I'm happy to discuss
>> it.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 17/10/2014, at 11:19 pm, Pierre Smits <pierre.smits@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Scott,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> You are correct. Yet, you forgot to mention that Jacopo used
'we' in
>>>>>> direct
>>>>>>> relation to the words attitude and trust. So, he is not talking
about
>>>>>> just
>>>>>>> his own feelings but about the collective perception.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Pierre Smits
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>>>>>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>>>>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>>>>>> Services and Retail & Trade
>>>>>>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Scott Gray <
>>>> scott.gray@hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hi Pierre,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Jacopo's first words in that email were "In my opinion".
 That's an
>>>>>>>> extremely important point.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> There are no guidelines because each PMC member is free to
vote
>>>> however
>>>>>>>> they feel would best serve the project.  Any of us could
provide our
>>>> own
>>>>>>>> personal guidelines but they would still just be personal
opinions.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 17/10/2014, at 10:55 pm, Pierre Smits <pierre.smits@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Jacopo,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I your posting regarding the vote to keep the PROJECTMGR
in
>> releases
>>>>>> (see
>>>>>>>>> here: http://ofbiz.markmail.org/message/maha6pwlatlxbb64
) you
>>>>>> addressed
>>>>>>>>> aspects as ' the right attitude' and 'trust them' in
respect to
>>>>>> inviting
>>>>>>>>> committers.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> In the committers role and responsibilities page (see
here:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBADMIN/OFBiz+Committers+Roles+and+Responsibilities
>>>>>>>>> ) we can read about the responsibilities. But words like
attitude
>> and
>>>>>>>> trust
>>>>>>>>> are not not mentioned.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Can you, as the PMC Chair, explain what the vision and
expectations
>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> regarding this right attitude and trust?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Pierre Smits
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>>>>>>>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>>>>>>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>>>>>>>> Services and Retail & Trade
>>>>>>>>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Jacopo Cappellato <
>>>>>>>>> jacopo.cappellato@hotwaxmedia.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> In my opinion we should avoid reconsidering the idea
of creating
>>>>>>>>>> committers with limited access; instead I would prefer
to invite
>>>>>>>> committers
>>>>>>>>>> when we trust them as individuals, when they have
demonstrated the
>>>>>> right
>>>>>>>>>> attitude and skills to work in our community etc...
and
>> demonstrate
>>>>>>>> enough
>>>>>>>>>> technical skills for the work they have to do; even
if it is
>> limited
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> subset of the OFBiz codebase they will get full access
to the
>> repos
>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> course they will limit their field of action to the
area they
>> know,
>>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>>>>> requiring us to enforce commit rights limitations.
As I said this
>>>> can
>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>> work if we trust them 100% as persons at first.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Jacopo
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>> 


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