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From Jacques Le Roux <jacques.le.r...@les7arts.com>
Subject Re: OFBIZ project health (was: Re: Latest OFBiz board report to the ASF about the health of the project)
Date Mon, 22 Sep 2014 19:45:34 GMT
Actually when I answered to Scott my tone was neutral. I just wanted to mention that some persons,
like Pierre and Ron, are not satisfied by how the 
community currently works .
That's their right, and even their pride (it's not that easy to stand up against a community)

What's interesting in their approaches, contrary to some of their predecessors, is they are
not (only ;) ranting but are (also ;) making interesting 
elaborated propositions...
Sometimes, their proposition (notably at the beginning) don't take into account the reality
and the way this project works. But, IMO, that's always 
interesting. We can then explain them and they can continue to think...

On the other hand I agree that any "Ad hominem" don't add anything... even the contrary, so
should better stop...


Le 22/09/2014 20:07, Mike Z a écrit :
> Guys. All this does not help the project.  It's time to stop.
> Sent from my BlackBerry® PlayBook™
> www.blackberry.com
> ------------------------------
> *From:* "Adrian Crum" <adrian.crum@sandglass-software.com>
> *To:* "user@ofbiz.apache.org" <user@ofbiz.apache.org>
> *Sent:* September 22, 2014 2:35 AM
> *Subject:* Re: OFBIZ project health (was: Re: Latest OFBiz board report to
> the ASF about the health of the project)
> Trust me, you don't need the PMC to discredit you, you are doing fine on
> your own.
> Adrian Crum
> Sandglass Softwarewww.sandglass-software.com
> On 9/22/2014 9:54 AM, Pierre Smits wrote:
>> I do not question how this community works. I understand the Apache Way.
>> I question the capabilities, actions and motives (both short and long term)
>> of the PMC with regards to managing this project, furthering it and doing
>> just to both users and contributors.
>> Like others have done in the past. But unlike those others, I don't flee
>> when PMC members try to discredit and ostracise me with innuendo and foul
>> language.
>> Pierre Smits
>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>> Services and Retail & Trade
>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>> On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 8:24 AM, Jacques Le Roux <
>> jacques.le.roux@les7arts.com> wrote:
>>> It seems to me that Pierre is questioning how this community work. He is
>>> not the 1st to do that, others have resigned, not Ron.
>>> Jacques
>>> Le 19/09/2014 13:20, Scott Gray a écrit :
>>>> Quite a novel you've written there Piere.  There's so many things I'd
>>>> like to clarify in your rant but you're so far detached from the reality
>>>> how this community works that it's gotten to the point of being pointless.
>>>> Regards
>>>> Scott
>>>> On 19 September 2014 20:59:48 GMT+12:00, Pierre Smits<
>>>> pierre.smits@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>>> Is you response directed to me, Scot? Or is it to all of the 'other
>>>>> kind of
>>>>> contributors than you are'?
>>>>> If directed at me, then have the common decency to state my name, so
>>>>> that
>>>>> all of us do know that too.
>>>>> RE: mailing list moderators.
>>>>> Up to yesterday, I was not aware of the fact that there was such a
>>>>> group,
>>>>> nor who the members are that are policing what gets in mailing list.
>>>>> Having
>>>>> done a little search on that subject in our wikis I found no reference
>>>>> about it, nor a disclosure of this. Doing a wider search in my mail
>>>>> archives I found that Jacques expressed back in November 2013 that it
>>>>> was
>>>>> unclear to him who those moderators were. And he is a PMC Member.....
>>>>> I guess I must compliment the PMC on showing such great restraint in:
>>>>>      - disclosing that there is a group within this community called
>>>>>      'mailing list moderators'
>>>>> - disclosing who the community members are that are policing our
>>>>> mailing
>>>>>      lists
>>>>> - reporting on what this group has kept out and/or removed our mailing
>>>>>      lists.
>>>>> My advise to the PMC is to re-evaluate and correct that situation. This
>>>>> community deserves transparency and disclosure.
>>>>> RE: critique
>>>>> Yes, Jacopo was criticising me using this mailing list for this matter.
>>>>> Not
>>>>> you, nor any other community member. That you think about it and
>>>>> express
>>>>> your viewpoint is a good thing to improve the work and/or the
>>>>> interactions
>>>>> between community members of this project.
>>>>> But don't try to shun or ostracize the other community member that does
>>>>> the
>>>>> same. Like you have tried in the past onto me and others with even far
>>>>> less
>>>>> moderation in you tones than you are sharing now.
>>>>> How wondrous and ambiguous you are when saying that 'community members
>>>>> perceive my actions in a negative way' and that thus meritocacy works
>>>>> against me.
>>>>> Is that your kind of community members? Or the other kind, the kind
>>>>> with
>>>>> the power to vote? The way you have expressed your self in the past,
>>>>> you
>>>>> could better have said 'we, the active committers and PMC members'.
>>>>> And meritocracy works against me? In this project it is applied as a
>>>>> popularity poll amongst persons who, in my opinion, only vote to
>>>>> protect
>>>>> their power base. But not in respect of bringing this project further,
>>>>> community wise.
>>>>>    >From day one of my participation in this project, from my first
>>>>> contribution onwards the cards in the deck have been stacked against
>>>>> and
>>>>> any of the other kind of contributor, because:
>>>>>      - I haven't done code contributions to the set of components in
>>>>>      framework stack,
>>>>>     - I haven't been your lackey, serf or yes-man every time you, and
>>>>>      other contributors like you, contributed stuff,
>>>>>      - I have called you out when you used foul language towards other
>>>>>      community members and myself.
>>>>> And you hold grudges.
>>>>> Since the day this project came out of the incubator, since the day
>>>>> archives and stats are available on the mailing lists and, for sure,
>>>>> the
>>>>> other tools of this project, it shows that I am, in absolute numbers,
>>>>> one
>>>>> of the most active non-committing contributors in this projects,
>>>>> whether
>>>>> you look at identifying issues, contributing patches helping newcomers
>>>>> and
>>>>> other community members and promoting both the works of this project
>>>>> and
>>>>> the project itself. Even promoting other contributors.
>>>>> I have been even more active than some of your kind. And if you or
>>>>> anyone
>>>>> else don't or doens't believe me, for an indication you can have a look
>>>>> at
>>>>> the 'Who sent it' overview inhttp://markmail.org/search/?q=ofbiz  I am
>>>>> in
>>>>> the top 25.
>>>>> That you regard my contributions as mediocre and/or argumentative for
>>>>> the
>>>>> sake of arguing, like you have done in the past, says more about you
>>>>> and
>>>>> your regards for contributions of the other kind of contributors and
>>>>> thus
>>>>> about those contributors, than the actual, objective merit of these
>>>>> contributions to this project. Meritocracy at work, my ass.
>>>>> That we disagree on points is fact. I respect our differences in
>>>>> viewpoints. I regret that you don't express - through your actions -
>>>>> the
>>>>> capability, nor the willingness to work with every contributor in
>>>>> finding
>>>>> consensus in improving this community and the total some of works of
>>>>> this
>>>>> project.
>>>>> Nonetheless, I do appreciate all your contributions to improve the
>>>>> quality
>>>>> of the code base of the components in the framework stack. And I'll
>>>>> appreciate you leaving the other stuff of this project to others.
>>>>> Now, to put it in the same paternalistic way as Jacopo has done, let's
>>>>> all
>>>>> get back to work, do what each of us is good at and thus make OFBiz a
>>>>> better project and product. And stop arguing for the sake of arguing.
>>>>> Pierre Smits
>>>>> *ORRTIZ.COM*
>>>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>>>> Services and Retail & Trade
>>>>> http://www.orrtiz.com

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