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From Vadim Eisenberg <VAD...@il.ibm.com>
Subject Re: Ofbiz and AAL was OfBiz e-commerce customization
Date Sun, 05 Sep 2010 12:19:34 GMT
Hi Bruno,

Do you mean that the framework could be (in the future) used as a general 
SOA architecture for running applications, not necessary ERP related ?

Best Regards,
Vadim
-------------------------------
Vadim Eisenberg
IT for Healthcare & Life Sciences
IBM Research - Haifa
 



From:
Bruno Busco <bruno.busco@gmail.com>
To:
user@ofbiz.apache.org
Date:
05/09/2010 03:06 PM
Subject:
Re: Ofbiz and AAL was OfBiz e-commerce customization



Yes, Vadim, consider also that there is an in-progress work aimed to 
better
separate the framework from the higher level applications.
This will let users like you use the power of the framework with just the
part they need of the higher applications.
-Bruno

2010/9/5 BJ Freeman <bjfree@free-man.net>

> I want to expand the conversation about using Ofbiz not just Ecommerce.
> First let start by thinking that everything is a system, living is a
> system.
> Everything we do is a bunch of black boxes with input and outputs, with 
the
> processes to deal with the input and create the output.
> To address ERP, we all in our lives, implement resource planning, some
> better than others.
> An example is meal planning. Though most do this second nature from a 
lot
> of experience, it can also be model in software.
> So how does resource-planning work in the home? From the Power used to 
do
> things like cooking, heating, to house repair is all resource planning.
> The “E” part simply defines the max scope of the software to handle such
> activities.
>
> Most of your specs  for a “requirements Engine” is resources planning.
> The end Goal is do we have the necessary resources to do something.
> One of those resources is Cash. For seniors this is paramount if they 
are
> on a fixed income. Resource planning and creating a budget is something
> Ofbiz can do with some added customization or expanding the current 
system.
>
> Have you thought to use Ofbiz to develop the requirements of you AAL
> project?
> Use the Project manager will give you feel for what I mean.
>
> So lets talk about Ofbiz.
> You have a framework that already does a lot, you specify a entity and 
its
> relationship then with just a few commands you have that available for 
the
> Screenlet.
> Layered on top of the framework is the Application that are generic to 
most
> of living but is primarily focused on business.
>
> Then you have the specific layer like Ecommerce and manufacturing.
> Now don’t discount manufacturing since that is what you do in the 
kitchen
> as recipes.
>
> I am serious when I say David is Architect a comprehensive system that 
can
> used in every aspect of our lives.
>
> So I would suggest:
> 1)Download Ofbiz and run it in Localhost  mode as a desktop to use the
> project manager and get feel for what it does.
> 2)Put it on a server so others in you group can do projects and tasks.
>
>
> =========================
> BJ Freeman  <http://bjfreeman.elance.com>
> Strategic Power Office with Supplier Automation  <
> http://www.businessesnetwork.com/automation/viewforum.php?f=52>
> Specialtymarket.com  <http://www.specialtymarket.com/>
> Systems Integrator-- Glad to Assist
>
> Chat  Y! messenger: bjfr33man
>
>
>
> Vadim Eisenberg sent the following on 9/5/2010 12:01 AM:
>
>
>  Hi BJ,
>>
>> It is an interesting idea ! You actually propose to use OfBiz as the 
core
>> platform for the AAL, and not only as an e-commerce solution. We will
>> consider it as an option. However, I would say that it seems that it 
could
>> be an overkill to use an ERP solution as a general platform for
>> applications and devices. This option could be too heavy, in terms of
>> unneeded code/unneeded business features/high learning curve etc.. The
>> idea is definitely interesting, though.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Vadim
>> -------------------------------
>> Vadim Eisenberg
>> IT for Healthcare&  Life Sciences
>> IBM Research - Haifa
>>
>>
>> BJ Freeman<bjfree@free-man.net>  wrote on 04/09/2010 04:37:21 PM:
>>
>>  From:
>>>
>>> BJ Freeman<bjfree@free-man.net>
>>>
>>> To:
>>>
>>> user@ofbiz.apache.org
>>>
>>> Date:
>>>
>>> 04/09/2010 04:38 PM
>>>
>>> Subject:
>>>
>>> Re: OfBiz e-commerce customization
>>>
>>> one of the concepts that is hard for most web developers is ofbiz
>>> Ecommerce is like a third Tier Application.
>>> Ecommerce depends on all the other Back-end applications and the
>>>
>> framework.
>>
>>> So you don't design a page then add the data in the db to support it.
>>> Also you will find the Ecommerce in the Second Volume starting about
>>> page 393.
>>> You can also look at the data model for Health care in Vol II.
>>> There is a section about Health Care Delivery. mind you this is only
>>> data modeling and the actual business logic and UI has to be 
developed.
>>>
>>> My back ground is hardware automation as well as embedded 
applications.
>>> in the 70's I designed a home that was automated, it used compressed 
air
>>>
>>
>>  and cylinders for activation of doors and ramps. At that time 
proximity
>>> sensors were all that was available.
>>>
>>> I say this because of your focus.
>>> Being nearly 70 I have worked towards a computer companion, as such,
>>> using AI. its purpose was to be my guide when I got too forgetful.
>>>
>>> so here is something you may not have considered. Ofbiz as the Home
>>> automation with in the home.
>>> Ofbiz has a sync capability used in the POS that could be used to sync
>>> the ofbiz running in the home with the main website.
>>> This way each person would have their own personalize themes for their
>>>
>> home.
>>
>>> this would be an embedded Linux server with touch screen. it is all
>>> enclosed.
>>> you would use the network that automatically connects to other network
>>> nodes and builds an Intranet in the home. this allows for other 
systems
>>> to interact with ofbiz.
>>>
>>> The Framework of ofbiz has the ability to run schedule services. the
>>> scripts for the services can be modified without re-compiling or
>>> restarting ofbiz, though the actual service defs do require a restart 
if
>>>
>>
>>  changed or added. this is being worked on so the home system can be
>>> updated on the fly.
>>>
>>> There is also a Setup component that can be added to for new 
components.
>>>
>>> needless to say I very sold on ofbiz and what it can do.
>>> it does though, as David said have places that need to fleshed out.
>>>
>>> =========================
>>>
>>> BJ Freeman
>>> Strategic Power Office with Supplier Automation<http://
>>> www.businessesnetwork.com/automation/viewforum.php?f=52>
>>> Specialtymarket.com<http://www.specialtymarket.com/>
>>> Systems Integrator-- Glad to Assist
>>>
>>> Chat  Y! messenger: bjfr33man
>>>
>>> Vadim Eisenberg sent the following on 9/4/2010 1:02 AM:
>>>
>>>  Hi David,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for your answer and explanations. I failed with the
>>>>
>>> formatting
>>
>>> for the second time, so I will try to write in plain text from now on.
>>>>
>>>> You wrote: "when asking questions here please keep in mind that
>>>>
>>> responses
>>
>>> you get are volunteer responses and the only qualification you can be
>>>>
>>> sure
>>
>>> of for those responding
>>>> is that they are capable of subscribing to the mailing list. If many
>>>> people respond with something
>>>> consistent then it is a safer bet that you can rely on the
>>>>
>>> information,
>>
>>> but usually not otherwise."
>>>>
>>>> I guess this is how Open Source works :) ? by volunteers contributing
>>>>
>>> code
>>
>>> to the product and answering questions in the mailing lists. I still
>>>>
>>> would
>>
>>> like to hear as much opinions as possible from the developers "in the
>>>> trenches", so anybody is welcome to provide them. I would like to
>>>>
>>> thank BJ
>>
>>> again for providing his opinions.
>>>>
>>>> Please note that the project I participate in, is a kind of Research
>>>>
>>> and
>>
>>> Development project, sponsored by EU and implemented by a consortium
>>>>
>>> of
>>
>>> academic and industrial partners. The project is planned for four
>>>>
>>> years
>>
>>> (ending in January 2014). One of its goals is to create an open source
>>>> implementation of an e-commerce solution - uStore, suited for the
>>>>
>>> field of
>>
>>> AAL - Ambient Assisted Living (that is a kind of "smart home" for
>>>>
>>> senior
>>
>>> citizens). The main concept of uStore is similar to the concept of
>>>> AppStore of Apple ? the AAL application developers would be able to
>>>>
>>> upload
>>
>>> and sell their applications from the store. In addition to that, AAL
>>>> related devices and human services would be sold. An additional
>>>>
>>> important
>>
>>> feature is to integrate "social commerce" ? user reviews, blogs,
>>>>
>>> forums
>>
>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>> Please note that developing uStore is Research and Development and
>>>>
>>> there
>>
>>> are not yet concrete AAL businesses that would immediately use it. The
>>>> goal is to provide some reference open source implementation in four
>>>> years. This implementation would be later supported and extended by 
an
>>>> open-source community according to the business needs of AAL
>>>>
>>> businesses,
>>
>>> once some real AAL businesses would use it. One of the goals is to
>>>>
>>> reuse
>>
>>> the existing open-source OOTB solutions in any field as much as
>>>>
>>> possible
>>
>>> in order to save resources as much as possible.
>>>>
>>>> As a result of the situation, the accent here is more on e-commerce
>>>> features of existing e-commerce solutions, especially related to the
>>>> e-commerce frontend, than on their ERP features. We would like to use
>>>>
>>> the
>>
>>> simplest and the most straightforward standard business model
>>>>
>>> (preferably
>>
>>> OOTB) for e-commerce and invest more resources into the frontend
>>>>
>>> features.
>>
>>> By the frontend features I mean the website, its accessibility,
>>>>
>>> including
>>
>>> presentation on smart phones, search, recommendations, user reviews,
>>>>
>>> blogs
>>
>>> and forums etc. As I understand the strength of OfBiz is actually its
>>>>
>>> rich
>>
>>> ERP data model, however here we probably do not need the advanced ERP
>>>> features of OfBiz.
>>>>
>>>> I have read your HEMP Light document ? it was interesting and 
provided
>>>> some insights for me. Currently we are in process of finalizing the
>>>>
>>> use
>>
>>> cases/requirements of the uStore and evaluating existing e-commerce
>>>> solutions, with OfBiz being one of the main candidates.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks&   Regards,
>>>> Vadim
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------
>>>> Vadim Eisenberg
>>>> IT for Healthcare&   Life Sciences
>>>> IBM Research - Haifa
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> David E Jones<dejc@me.com>   wrote on 03/09/2010 10:00:38 PM:
>>>>
>>>>  From:
>>>>>
>>>>> David E Jones<dejc@me.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> To:
>>>>>
>>>>> user@ofbiz.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Date:
>>>>>
>>>>> 03/09/2010 10:01 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject:
>>>>>
>>>>> Re: OfBiz e-commerce customization
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Vadim,
>>>>>
>>>>> About your formatting: this mailing list filters out all HTML
>>>>> because HTML email messages tend to be VERY large and the Apache
>>>>> Software Foundation in general has many thousands of messages going
>>>>> through mailing lists every day.
>>>>>
>>>>> Back to your original question: when asking questions here please
>>>>> keep in mind that responses you get are volunteer responses and the
>>>>> only qualification you can be sure of for those responding is that
>>>>> they are capable of subscribing to the mailing list. If many people
>>>>> respond with something consistent then it is a safer bet that you
>>>>> can rely on the information, but usually not otherwise. With a
>>>>> question as long and involved as yours chances are you'll only get a
>>>>> small number of responses, and chances are your experience will be
>>>>> VERY different from those few who do respond.
>>>>>
>>>>> OFBiz is a large project. A good developer can learn to work
>>>>> effectively with the framework with a couple of weeks of training
>>>>> and a couple of months of hands-on development. However, even a good
>>>>> developer will have a hard time picking up all of the data
>>>>> structures and business logic even after many months of study, and
>>>>> realistically since most people don't or can't do that, it usually
>>>>> takes years of work experience and even then they'll only have
>>>>> knowledge of the parts of the system that have had the opportunity
>>>>> to work with.
>>>>>
>>>>> Understanding the business side is much easier for someone who has a
>>>>> good business background, and by good business background I mean
>>>>> really good experience with how businesses actually operate and what
>>>>> sorts of information businesses actually keep track of when
>>>>> operating. Sometimes people coming out of university business
>>>>> programs will have this, but most of the time they do not. Most
>>>>> people with business degrees will have learned more about laws and
>>>>> how to manipulate people than about the myriad of complexities of
>>>>> managing a warehouse, handling purchasing, or tracking information
>>>>> about products to facility the many touch points with those products
>>>>> throughout the company, and making it easy for customers to find
>>>>> products they want, or how to figure out where customer interest
>>>>> intersects with stuff you want to move.
>>>>>
>>>>> So anyway, keep in mind that your diving into a pretty comprehensive
>>>>> ERP system, but one that is made up of what people have seen fit to
>>>>> contribute for free. An extremely wide variety of data structures
>>>>> and common business processes are represented in the system, though
>>>>> many are not complete, or at least not complete in the way your
>>>>> client will want to use them.
>>>>>
>>>>> The only way to really be sure is to document ALL business
>>>>> activities (usually easiest if organized by process and not by role
>>>>> or by system function), and then do an overlap/gap analysis to see
>>>>> how each business activity would be done in the system, or if there
>>>>> is not something to do it (or it is not adequate for what your users
>>>>> want) then detail what the system needs to do to help manage that
>>>>> activity. Once you've done that, then you'll know what the system
>>>>> can do for you as-is, and what needs to be done to expand and change
>>>>> the system to do what your client needs. Short of that, everything
>>>>> is a guess and guaranteed to be wrong (the only question is by how
>>>>> much and in which direction(s)...).
>>>>>
>>>>> To help with that I recommend this material (this is what I use
>>>>>
>>>> withclients):
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.dejc.com/home/HEMP.html
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd also recommend looking at some of the generic business process
>>>>> stories that have come from OFBiz-based projects and been refined
>>>>> somewhat over the years (though keep in mind that these stories in
>>>>> some places represent activities that are not managed by OOTB OFBiz,
>>>>> ie these need an overlap/gap analysis document to make them more
>>>>>
>>>> meaningful):
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBREQDES/Universal
>>>>> +Business+Process+Library+Index
>>>>>
>>>>> Best of luck,
>>>>> -David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 3, 2010, at 11:32 AM, Vadim Eisenberg wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  Hello BJ and other OfBiz developers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was not subscribed to the mailing list so I did not receive the
>>>>>>
>>>>> answer
>>>>
>>>>> of BJ to my previous message -
>>>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/ofbiz-user/201009.mbox/%
>>>>>>
>>>>> 3C4C7FFC99.9020109@free-man.net%3E
>>>>>
>>>>>> . Because of that I cannot post a response to it. Secondly, I used

a
>>>>>>
>>>>> wrong
>>>>
>>>>> MIME in my previous message, so all the bullets and formatting were
>>>>>> missing. I am reposting the original message below in the right
>>>>>>
>>>>> format
>>
>>>
>>>>  (any additional comments/opinions are welcome). In addition, my
>>>>>>
>>>>> response
>>>>
>>>>> to BJ follows. Sorry for the mess I created.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi BJ,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you for your prompt response. I think I've got the general
>>>>>>
>>>>> idea.
>>
>>> I
>>>>
>>>>> still would like to ask a question about learning OfBiz:
>>>>>> The three volumes of the data model book comprise about 1700 pages
>>>>>> together. Should I use the book as a reference or do I have to read
>>>>>>
>>>>> all
>>>>
>>>>> the three volumes before starting my work on OfBiz ? Which parts of
>>>>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>> book are required before I begin my work ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks&   Regards,
>>>>>> Vadim
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My original message:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> 
===========================================================================================================
>>
>>> Hello OfBiz developers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My name is Vadim Eisenberg and I work at IBM Research - Haifa, on
>>>>>>
>>>>> the
>>
>>> UniversAAL project - http://universaal.org/. It is a consortium
>>>>>>
>>>>> European
>>>>
>>>>> project. Its goal is to create a platform for applications, services
>>>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>
>>>>> devices for Ambient Assisted Living, that is a kind of "Smart Home"
>>>>>>
>>>>> for
>>>>
>>>>> senior citizens. As part of the platform, we - several software
>>>>>>
>>>>> developers
>>>>
>>>>> - have to develop an e-commerce site - uStore
>>>>>> http://universaal.org/index.php?
>>>>>>
>>>>> option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=9&Itemid=21
>>>>>
>>>>>> . This site would be a one-stop-shop for software, services and
>>>>>>
>>>>> devices
>>>>
>>>>> for Ambient Assisted Living.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We consider using OfBiz for implementation of uStore.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would like to ask you several questions about the features we 
want
>>>>>>
>>>>> to
>>>>
>>>>> implement. I would be glad to hear any information you can tell me
>>>>>>
>>>>> about
>>>>
>>>>> how hard could it be for us to implement these features. Please note
>>>>>>
>>>>> that
>>>>
>>>>> we have no prior experience with OfBiz.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any your thoughts, intuition, experience, advice about
>>>>>>
>>>>> OfBiz/business
>>
>>> programming are welcome.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In particular, the following information would help us very much
:
>>>>>> How much work should be done by us in order to implement all the
>>>>>>
>>>>> features
>>>>
>>>>> that follow (Person/Months, Person/Years, for skilled OfBiz
>>>>>> developers/general software engineers). Which part would be to use
>>>>>> existing "extension" mechanisms of OfBiz and which part would be
>>>>>>
>>>>> actually
>>>>
>>>>> changing the OfBiz code ? Here your intuition/experience from
>>>>>>
>>>>> related
>>
>>> projects is welcome, we do not need exact numbers, just a ballpark.
>>>>>> How much time the general software developers have to learn about
>>>>>>
>>>>> OfBiz
>>>>
>>>>> and how skilled in OfBiz  they should become in order to implement
>>>>>>
>>>>> these
>>>>
>>>>> features
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         E-commerce website features:
>>>>>> Using e-commerce site for selling software (such as AppStore of
>>>>>>
>>>>> iPhone)
>>>>
>>>>> and downloadable files in general (video, presentations of courses
>>>>>>
>>>>> etc.).
>>>>
>>>>> Here the issue is to manage links where the bought files could be
>>>>>> downloaded. The idea is to prevent a situation in which buyers 
would
>>>>>>
>>>>> buy a
>>>>
>>>>> software application, receive a link to it for downloading and share
>>>>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>> link afterwards with anybody they want, so anybody would be able to
>>>>>> download the application without paying for it.
>>>>>> Using e-commerce site for selling services (human services and
>>>>>>
>>>>> others)
>>
>>> Extending e-commerce site with general widgets, such as calendar,
>>>>>>
>>>>> clock,
>>>>
>>>>> map, a widget for downloading files, etc., and integrating the
>>>>>>
>>>>> widgets
>>
>>>
>>>>  with the OfBiz
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Integration with other websites/services:
>>>>>> Integrating an e-commerce website with another (non-OfBiz backed)
>>>>>>
>>>>> site
>>
>>> -
>>>>
>>>>> adding possibility for sellers to add products to the e-commerce
>>>>>>
>>>>> site
>>
>>> via
>>>>
>>>>> the other site, to see customer feedback provided on the e-commerce
>>>>>>
>>>>> site
>>>>
>>>>> via the other site
>>>>>> Integrating an e-commerce website with another (possibly non-OfBiz)
>>>>>> e-commerce website, such as eBay/Amazon. What are the current
>>>>>> possibilities of integration with eBay ?
>>>>>> Integrating an e-commerce website with post/delivery services/sites
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Adding advanced features:
>>>>>> Adding support for signing business contracts between service
>>>>>>
>>>>> consumers
>>>>
>>>>> and service providers, between providers of different services etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>> via
>>>>
>>>>> the e-commerce site
>>>>>> Adding support for applying capability/requirement model, such as
>>>>>> JSR-124,  (for example  for matching between customer's 
requirements
>>>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>
>>>>> capabilities of software, devices and services). The customer or
>>>>>>
>>>>> software
>>>>
>>>>> agent on behalf of the customer could provide his requirements as
>>>>>>
>>>>> part
>>
>>> of
>>>>
>>>>> his account information, and the e-commerce solution would match
>>>>>>
>>>>> between
>>>>
>>>>> the products (according to their capabilities) and the requirements
>>>>>>
>>>>> of
>>
>>> the
>>>>
>>>>> customers.
>>>>>> Has OfBiz a recommendation engine (providing recommendations to a
>>>>>>
>>>>> user
>>
>>>
>>>>  based on his activity - searches, purchases, reviews etc.) ? If no,
>>>>>>
>>>>> how
>>>>
>>>>> hard would it be to add it ?
>>>>>> Can the OfBiz-based e-commerce web site be presented by browsers
of
>>>>>>
>>>>> smart
>>>>
>>>>> phones  ? How hard would it be to enable it ?
>>>>>> Changing search/recommendations of OfBiz to be based on the
>>>>>>
>>>>> requirements
>>>>
>>>>> of the customer
>>>>>> Changing search/recommendations of OfBiz to be based on the
>>>>>>
>>>>> geolocation of
>>>>
>>>>> the customer
>>>>>> Adding support for customization of products/services and changes

in
>>>>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>> prices according to the customization during the purchase process
>>>>>> Adding support for a composition solution of hardware, software and
>>>>>>
>>>>> human
>>>>
>>>>> services (bundles, kits). A seller could compose a new product by
>>>>>> combining several existing products
>>>>>> Adding support for manual approval of products by site
>>>>>>
>>>>> administrators
>>
>>> before submission of the products to the e-commerce site
>>>>>> Adding support for managing versions of the software applications
>>>>>>
>>>>> that
>>
>>> are
>>>>
>>>>> sold on the e-commerce website
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry for so many questions and sorry if some of them are out of
>>>>>>
>>>>> context.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>> Vadim
>>>>>> -------------------------------
>>>>>> Vadim Eisenberg
>>>>>> IT for Healthcare&   Life Sciences
>>>>>> IBM Research - Haifa
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>



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