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From Sharan Foga <sharan.f...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Feedback on Committer Mentoring and HipChat
Date Wed, 24 Aug 2016 08:28:53 GMT
Hi All

All good points Taher- thanks for detailing them in a clear way.

I don't think HipChat should be a restricted to be opened on certain 
occasions - it is a tool, so should be available whenever anyone wants 
to use it. Not everyone can collaborate only on our Community Days.

I really think that the history capability of HipChat should not be a 
key focus - why? Because as already stated many times in this thread - 
if it didn't happen on the mailing then it didn't happen. I see that the 
fact that the HipChat history is not kept long term is a good thing 
because it reinforces the use of the mailing lists for all the important 
discussions and decisions. ThIs will also make it clear that the one 
source of truth and the place to search for anything history related is 
the mailing lists (not the HipChat, or wiki comments or anything - it is 
our mailing lists).


On 24/08/16 09:48, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
> I agree Taher, from so far feedbacks it seems it more the manner to 
> use it which needs to be addressed. What about "opening it" only for
> 1. together working days
> 2. when we agree about quickly exchanging on a subject previously 
> roughly explained on dev ML
> By "opening it" I mean we would have a chat channel always ready but 
> we would use only in these (and possibly others) occasions. Having 
> history always available is still a must, better if it's automated.
> Jacques
> Le 24/08/2016 à 09:28, Taher Alkhateeb a écrit :
>> Hello everyone,
>> To put some context into this discussion please note the reason why we
>> started hipchat in the first place is because of communication barriers.
>> As we started the refactoring project many people were overwhelmed 
>> with the
>> complexity of some of the tasks, and people needed to discuss things and
>> explore and brainstorm. In that respect the mailing list proved to be an
>> inefficient communication tool. Here are some reasons:
>> - You need more energy and time to compose your thoughts and say 
>> something
>> of value in the mailing list.
>> - It might be intimidating for some individuals to ask very basic 
>> questions
>> or irrelevant topics in the mailing list where everybody's reading. 
>> People
>> usually restrain themselves in the mailing list which is the correct 
>> thing
>> to do. We should not to litter it with a lot of useless information.
>> - brainstorming is hard on the mailing list because you are exploring an
>> area that you're not confident in and you need instant feedback and back
>> and forth exchange to come up with something of value.
>> - How about mentoring and pair programming? Can you do that in the 
>> mailing
>> list or in the JIRAs? Probably not, or at least not well.
>> - People get to know each other more closely which add to the harmony of
>> the project. I made good friends and learned that we have wonderful 
>> people
>> in the community. The exchange to build this kind of rapport might 
>> not be
>> suitable in the mailing list.
>> So to summarize the mailing list is absolutely important and it is the
>> basis for all decisions. But we DO have a gap in communication that I 
>> think
>> instant messaging applications like hipchat can fill.
>> Taher Alkhateeb
>> On Aug 24, 2016 8:50 AM, "Scott Gray" <scott.gray@hotwaxsystems.com> 
>> wrote:
>>> I'm in two minds about it.
>>> On one hand it's nice to be able to chat in real time with other 
>>> community
>>> members and increasing our sense of community is important for the 
>>> project.
>>> But on the other hand, I fear it would too often be used to have
>>> discussions that should really be had on the user/dev lists. The 
>>> benefits
>>> of our discussions on these email lists being archived and searchable
>>> really can't be understated, I use it heavily to refresh my memory 
>>> (along
>>> with svn history) about anything and everything OFBiz related.
>>> If the HipChat logs were stored with the ASF and made public I would 
>>> 100%
>>> be in favor of using it.  Maybe in the future infra can come up with
>>> something more suitable.
>>> Community days might be a good compromise between the two positions 
>>> though,
>>> we could perhaps even copy/paste the chat logs into confluence for 
>>> future
>>> reference and to benefit those who were unable to attend.
>>> Regards
>>> Scott
>>> On 24 August 2016 at 17:27, Ashish Vijaywargiya <
>>> ashish.vijaywargiya@hotwaxsystems.com> wrote:
>>>> Hipchat is a wonderful software. I think opening it for community 
>>>> day can
>>>> be a good step but I would refrain to open it on the daily basis. 
>>>> Thanks!
>>>> -- 
>>>> Kind Regards
>>>> Ashish Vijaywargiya
>>>> HotWax Systems - est. 1997
>>>> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 2:12 PM, Sharan Foga <sharan.foga@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Hi All
>>>>> A few weeks ago, in response to the results of the Committer 
>>>>> Survey, I
>>>>> setup a trial Hipchat environment to help with Committer Mentoring.
>>> (See
>>>>> links to the previous discussion threads below:)
>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8b8738c3adcb1b7aafd7c90f9b1cbb
>>>>> 54500578d8cd392c3b18d635b9@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b64aad3bbaca967cf432adfd62ce6
>>>>> 8901c95218a8aa59d706aed6bc@%3Cdev.ofbiz.apache.org%3E
>>>>> I really liked the HipChat environment and think that it's a great
>>>>> collaborative tool that also helps build community spirit. So now I'd
>>>> like
>>>>> to get some feedback :-)
>>>>> First of all I'd like to hear from the committers and mentors who
>>>>> participated to find out what they thought of the HipChat 
>>>>> environment,
>>>> what
>>>>> their general comments are and whether they would like it to be made
>>>>> available on a permanent basis.
>>>>> Secondly I'd like to get some general feedback from everyone to find
>>> out
>>>>> if the whole community would also be interested in participating in
>>>> HipChat
>>>>> environment (e.g. for collaborating on Jiras, or during our Community
>>>>> Days). Other ASF projects have HipChat spaces setup and publish a 
>>>>> link
>>>> that
>>>>> anyone can use to join and we could do the same.
>>>>> The mailing list would still be used for discussions and decisions 
>>>>> but
>>> if
>>>>> people are working together on a particular task then this could be a
>>>> good
>>>>> way to speed up the process.  I'm thinking particularly about things
>>> like
>>>>> the re-factoring and our Jira backlog where bringing together the
>>>> reporter
>>>>> and the developer could make things move a lot more quickly!)
>>>>> We have another Community Day coming up in a few weeks on 17th
>>> September
>>>>> so it could be a good chance to see how it could work in action. What
>>> do
>>>>> people think?
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Sharan

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