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Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2014 13:52:10 +0100
From: Adrian Crum <adrian.crum@sandglass-software.com>
Organization: Sandglass Software
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To: dev@ofbiz.apache.org
Subject: Re: Where is the error.log gone?
References: <540D9D15.5020403@les7arts.com>	<540EE3F5.6010403@librenberry.net>
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	<8DC1EDD4-CE8B-4611-A597-E274D608CC9A@gmail.com>
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	<5416AF1F.2040200@les7arts.com>	<5416BAE0.4010607@sandglass-software.com>
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	<239C1B02-13FA-428E-A388-CD4A521508BA@hotwaxmedia.com>
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I would be in favor of adding more comments if it will help end users 
configure their local copy.

But keep in mind those comments remove the necessity of adding the error 
log to the trunk - since they will know how to enable it themselves.

Adrian Crum
Sandglass Software
www.sandglass-software.com

On 9/15/2014 1:47 PM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>
> Le 15/09/2014 14:29, Adrian Crum a écrit :
>> The issue has been resolved, so yes - I am trying to get you to shut
>> up about it.
>
> I guess you speak about OFBIZ-5287. Then I have just reopened and
> assigned it to myself.
> My plan is to propose and alternative log4j2.xml with some inline
> comments (never hurt if maintained) and to put back error.log. This is
> in a patch submitted at OFBIZ-5287.
> Then I will to ask users (on user ML) to vote for putting back the
> error.log or not. This is called democracy and majority will tell us. I
> have not much hope, but I want to try.
>
> Jacques
>>
>> If you spent half as much time creating a configuration patch as you
>> did making your silly pointless arguments, then your customers and
>> sysadmins would have the log configurations they need.
>>
>> Adrian Crum
>> Sandglass Software
>> www.sandglass-software.com
>>
>> On 9/15/2014 1:17 PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
>>> I am not debating your point that configuring log settings is a standard
>>> practice. I am debating the mimimum that OFBiz provides OOTB and whether
>>> that is good enough for the majority of the users.
>>>
>>> I use OFBiz in my business. I offer it as a business solution to my
>>> prospective customers, and I provide services around around OFBiz.
>>> So yes, I have a vested interest in having a solution that is easily
>>> implemented, including ease of reporting on functioning in any kind of
>>> operation setting. An OOTB error.log helps with that. Having someone
>>> to go
>>> into an extensive log file and extract from there the errors and report
>>> those is eating up more time than having the report ready. Likewise is
>>> having to configure every new instantiation to get it to the default
>>> that
>>> is needed in a business environment (and according to business needs).
>>> Having a feature set and a configuration setting that satisfies the
>>> majority is better than having one that satisfies a minority.
>>>
>>> That you hold my argument as just for the sake of argumentative, is
>>> beside
>>> the reality I am faced with.  A reality that others might have as
>>> well. It
>>> seems to me that your last remark is rather intended to have me (and
>>> others) shut up about this than trying to resolve this issue.
>>>
>>> Pierre Smits
>>>
>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>> Services and Retail & Trade
>>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 1:52 PM, Adrian Crum <
>>> adrian.crum@sandglass-software.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I agree the importance is in the arguments.
>>>>
>>>> You have argued that *forcing* someone to configure their log
>>>> settings in
>>>> a production deployment places an undue burden on them. As I have
>>>> pointed
>>>> out, configuring log settings is standard practice - no one is being
>>>> forced
>>>> to do it. In fact, only a fool would run OFBiz in a production
>>>> environment
>>>> using the OOTB settings.
>>>>
>>>> So, your argument has been contrived simply for the sake of being
>>>> argumentative. Clearly, your participation in this discussion is not
>>>> in the
>>>> best interest of the community.
>>>>
>>>> Adrian Crum
>>>> Sandglass Software
>>>> www.sandglass-software.com
>>>>
>>>> On 9/15/2014 12:35 PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The timing of when an opinion is expressed in a posting should be
>>>>> considered of a lesser importance than the arguments in such postings.
>>>>>
>>>>> Given that your viewpoint only supports your personal case, makes me
>>>>> wonder
>>>>> whether you have the best interest of other community members and
>>>>> users at
>>>>> heart.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pierre Smits
>>>>>
>>>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>>>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>>>> Services and Retail & Trade
>>>>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Pierre Smits
>>>>> <pierre.smits@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>   Having an error.log OOTB, for sure, doens't have a negative
>>>>> impact on
>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pierre Smits
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>>>>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>>>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>>>>> Services and Retail & Trade
>>>>>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 12:19 PM, Scott Gray
>>>>>> <scott.gray@hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Everyone?  So far we only have Jacques.  Well and you I guess, but
>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>> debatable considering you only just decided yesterday to form a
>>>>>>> strong
>>>>>>> opinion so I have my doubts about it having a negative impact for
>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 15/09/2014, at 10:14 pm, Pierre Smits <pierre.smits@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Why *force* EVERYONE not to have an error log OOTB? Why *force*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> EVERYONE to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> spend time and money to get it back in?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pierre Smits
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>>>>>>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>>>>>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>>>>>>> Services and Retail & Trade
>>>>>>>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Adrian Crum <
>>>>>>>> adrian.crum@sandglass-software.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Jacques,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That perspective goes both ways. From my perspective, you are
>>>>>>>>> trying
>>>>>>>>> *force* everyone to do things your way.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That is why everyone is trying to get you to realize that a
>>>>>>>>> one-size-fits-all setting will not work - because everyone is
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> different.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you want the error log on your installation, then configure
>>>>>>>>> it to
>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>> so. Why *force* EVERYONE to have an error log?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Adrian Crum
>>>>>>>>> Sandglass Software
>>>>>>>>> www.sandglass-software.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 9/15/2014 10:19 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   Not when you want to quickly spot obvious errors that you can
>>>>>>>>> easily
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> fix
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> or wait to fix later, and yes I spent my share of debugging also...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But anyway, why do you want to *force* everybody to use the
>>>>>>>>>> same way
>>>>>>>>>> than you, are you an OFBiz prophet?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Le 15/09/2014 10:53, Scott Gray a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>   As someone who has spent thousands of hours debugging OFBiz
>>>>>>>>>>> installations I can assure you that the error.log is
>>>>>>>>>>> redundant and
>>>>>>>>>>> provides no true value over ofbiz.log.  As I've mentioned a few
>>>>>>>>>>> times
>>>>>>>>>>> now, OFBiz errors are regularly worthless without knowledge
>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>> context of the error which can only be found in ofbiz.log.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> With a few command line tools "clutter" is a total non-issue and
>>>>>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>>>>> a basic knowledge of those tools is a total time saver when
>>>>>>>>>>> investigating log files.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/09/2014, at 7:43 pm, Pierre Smits <pierre.smits@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On the basis that log analysis and error
>>>>>>>>>>> identification/reporting
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> costs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> money, and the more complex this process is the more it costs.
>>>>>>>>>>>> An error log contains less clutter and is the first point in
>>>>>>>>>>>> identification
>>>>>>>>>>>> and triage of (severe) issues in any organisation that has
>>>>>>>>>>>> adopted
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> methodology for service delivery (e.g. ITIL, ISO/IEC 20000,
>>>>>>>>>>>> etc),
>>>>>>>>>>>> specifically the error control process (in ITIL)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Without this OOTB more time is spend on:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     - going through the other, more detailed log(s) in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> various
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> OFBiz
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     systems an organisation might have (e.g. dev, test, prod, etc)
>>>>>>>>>>>>     - getting the error log back and ensuring that it stays in.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Pierre Smits
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>>>>>>>>>>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>>>>>>>>>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>>>>>>>>>>> Services and Retail & Trade
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 2:29 AM, Scott Gray <
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> scott.gray@hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On what basis?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/09/2014, at 9:44 pm, Pierre Smits
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <pierre.smits@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I support reverting this regression.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pierre Smits
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Services and Retail & Trade
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Jacopo Cappellato <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jacopo.cappellato@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 12, 2014, at 10:35 AM, Jacques Le Roux <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jacques.le.roux@les7arts.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why you are so not open to put back the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> error.log in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   log4j2.xml
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because it is just one of 1 million possible ways to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> configure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> logging:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   is a specific one on not a generic one and so it is not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other 1 million possibilities; you have explained why you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it but
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   me or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   others could find similar arguments for the other
>>>>>>>>>>>>> millions ways;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   one seconded you in your attempt to add the configuration
>>>>>>>>>>>>> back
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> confirms to me that this specific configuration is not better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   other;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   for this reason it should be left out of the trunk.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and qualify this as a mess and almost myself and idiot.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   I didn't say this and the mail archive can demonstrate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it; you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trying to raise the tone of the conversation since the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thread (and you did the same in at least another thread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recently)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will not start to fight with you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jacopo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>