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From Shi Yusen <sh...@langhua.cn>
Subject Re: Apachecon once again
Date Sat, 03 Apr 2010 03:28:45 GMT

Oh, I almost forgot this is a dev list.

在 2010-04-02五的 14:53 -0400,Ruth Hoffman写道:
> Hi Scott:
> Thanks that has been my understanding.
> However, David has made a statement that the ApacheCon organization is a 
> for profit organization. I want to make sure that I'm operating under 
> the correct assumptions when I make my decisions relative to this 
> conference. There is a HUGE difference between an organization taking in 
> more money than expenses and an organization operating as a "for profit" 
> endeavor.
> I'd like to know what David really means by his statement.
> Regards,
> Ruth
> Scott Gray wrote:
> > Apache is non-profit, but the foundation does "profit" from ApacheCons in the sense
that their takings exceed expenses.  This "profit" goes back into the foundation account to
be used for other expenses involved in running the foundation.
> >
> > Regards
> > Scott
> >
> > HotWax Media
> > http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
> >
> > On 2/04/2010, at 12:32 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
> >
> >   
> >> Hi David:
> >> Where have you seen it documented that ApacheCon is an organization with a "for
profit" tax status?
> >>
> >> Everything I see says that ApacheCon is the "Official User Conference of the
Apache Software Foundation". This implies that it is sanctioned by ASF and that it is a non-profit
organization. Please, if you know for sure where it is documented that ApacheCon is a separate,
for profit, organization, I'd like to know.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Ruth
> >>
> >> David E Jones wrote:
> >>     
> >>> It would be nice if it were that way, but that's just not the case.
> >>>
> >>> ApacheCon is a for profit effort with some of the proceeds going to the
foundation (in theory). In other words, the ASF gets money from ApacheCon and does not generally
invest any money in ApacheCon. In 2009 I think the foundation did invest some money in marketing
(for the anniversary) that also benefitted ApacheCon (since they had a party there for it),
but that's the closest thing I'm aware of to what you are describing.
> >>>
> >>> Also consider that the majority of the participants in the OFBiz events
have been people who already know about and are already using OFBiz. Even in 2008 with the
enormous investments in the conference by OFBiz contributors, much of which was supposed to
go into promoting the conference but the PR consulting company messed up that year (which
caused them to be replaced), and so even then most of the people attending sessions were presenters
at other sessions.
> >>>
> >>> Even in the pre-ApacheCon OFBiz Users Conferences there were far more developers
and contributors attending than users, and typically the users were people who happened to
live close to the conference and who attended to check out what was going on.
> >>>
> >>> We need something else to attract end-users and better meet their needs.
> >>>
> >>> -David
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Apr 2, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
> >>>
> >>>  
> >>>       
> >>>> Hi Ean:
> >>>> Nice, but I think you might be missing my point.
> >>>>
> >>>> ApacheCon is all about telling the world about OFBiz and using the immense
resources available to the Foundation to do that.
> >>>>
> >>>> IMHO it isn't really about socializing with the small and (getting smaller
by the hour) OFBiz community. ApacheCon is for our end-users. Or rather, our potential end-users.
This should be the place where we showcase our wares and not "vacation with a purpose".
> >>>>
> >>>> Just my 2 cents.
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> Ruth
> >>>>
> >>>> Ean Schuessler wrote:
> >>>>    
> >>>>         
> >>>>> I think DebConf is a good example that this can be done and done
right. I know HP helps out with the expenses of DebConf but part of that is helping fly in
developers from countries where the currency exchange rates make attendance impractically
high. We may simply not be able to do that or we may come to some agreement about how we would
share those expenses for speakers with something especially important to contribute.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Given the relatively small size of our community, we have a lot
of flexibility about where we choose to meet. In my mind, the accommodations should be purposefully
modest yet interesting and fun. There are lots of options like that in all kinds of places.
We can think of it as a collaboratively planned vacation with a purpose.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> David E Jones wrote:
> >>>>>      
> >>>>>           
> >>>>>> I'm not sure if you meant this or not Ruth, but as it was addressed
to me I should clarify: I did speak up here, but I am not taking a role in organizing anything
as I did in previous years. In other words, I'm not committing to anything on behalf of the
project and I'm not trying to recruit speakers and I'm not volunteering to speak or do training
> >>>>>> Quite frankly in the past it has required a lot of time and
money and liability with no real benefit. I hope someone profited from those past efforts,
perhaps the for-profit organizers and maybe some attendees as well. About that, I don't know.
ApacheCon was a mess in '08 because people were paying a lot to attend (both the training
and the conference) and yet none of the money (not a penny) went to any of the presenters
or trainers. In other words, the presenters and trainers were paying to be there and so were
the attendees. This culminated in some fascinating personal attacks from people who attended
and who were not satisfied that what they got was worth what they paid for it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Just in case anyone is wondering ApacheCon is not the only one
that ended up this way. In another conference I did some pre-conference training and made
almost nothing doing it because the conference organizers mixed the funds for the training
with the funds for the conference, and so basically I offered training and most of the proceeds
went to subsidize the conference. My guess is that this happens a lot with conferences.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So, taking that on just so other people can make money? Well,
I'd like to say that I learned my lesson and that's why I'm not interested (that would incorrectly
make me look experienced and intelligent and somehow remotely good at business dealings),
but the fact of the matter is that even if I wanted to I don't have the weeks of time and
thousands of dollars to even participate in a bare minimum way. If someone else does, I'm
sure many people will benefit from their contributions and they should certainly step up and
go for it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Anyway, sorry if any bitterness bled through in this text. I
think it's really just human nature that expectations of EVERYONE involved with such things
have expectations dramatically inconsistent with reality.
> >>>>>>         
> >>>>>>             
> >>>  
> >>>       
> >
> >   

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