Mailing-List: contact dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org; run by ezmlm
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Optional modules with GPL dependencies (was: What to
 include/exclude in code donation to Apache)
To: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
References: <81acdcc2-996e-605c-8ddb-50107bdcd9f1@shanecurcuru.org>
 <CACkjAxSPgk0OOWTEGOfX3A+JPd=-pdYVzYubYMJ5Un9_SAm+yQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CF8A2526-B07F-49D6-92D8-E3C03470C545@gmail.com>
 <CAOzQtikwDMfANsDMTvDhXrdfBBJS-RBCL1KsjZH3oCP3rU-6OA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACkjAxQQXL6WwCcitkCLRPL-PQAMGAh=9ODXpjZ5po8YJzNvOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3969CDCE-BF6A-4119-8E0B-FE0D4045073A@gmail.com>
 <CACkjAxQhnJKrvh+MOdQqwzXK1rjwdfDcDkjiDfVcJ7Cx9ikV0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A000C893-51E2-42D2-B11F-CC37A0247204@gmail.com>
 <CANtcCs7tVgb4MrxoT=Yp8W24Tf4JvQExf1uAf+Pf3emEGXnxDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1478593262.2855.2.camel@jujens.eu>
 <CA+sftsAg_=ZdWmoykW2jDN-Hqw+kv+QOLYFezkG1ZgWBS154Mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACkjAxTBw_VvMb1OuGMCxPS_kGTksJzOkgxhupurg=BPx0-csw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Ate Douma <ate@douma.nu>
Message-ID: <15fa9780-46c3-5bb9-b714-99e5627c2a5f@douma.nu>
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 11:41:52 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101
 Thunderbird/45.4.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CACkjAxTBw_VvMb1OuGMCxPS_kGTksJzOkgxhupurg=BPx0-csw@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
archived-at: Tue, 08 Nov 2016 10:43:03 -0000

On 2016-11-08 11:11, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
> Yup. I'm sure we can do a solution like where on the download page we'd=

> specify that they can install the requirements for Java tooling during
> installation or via a download package on the same page as where the
> NetBeans installer itself is found.

The latter, providing a download package for the nb-javac libraries on th=
e same
(ASF hosted) page as the installer is not allowed.
Only linking to an external download package, and/or instructions what to=
 do is.

>
> Gj
>
> On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 10:39 AM, Leonardo Loch Zanivan <
> leonardo.zanivan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The above is true for companies and educational institutions.
>> Internet access is very restricted and often require a proxy setup.
>>
>> Leonardo
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 6:21 AM Julien Enselme <jenselme@jujens.eu> wro=
te:
>>
>>> I generally have no big problems with downloads at install time.
>>> However, some users may download the installer to install NetBeans on=
 a
>>> computer without internet access. What then? Will Java will work in a=

>>> degraded mode? Will it be possible for the user to manually install t=
he
>>> JARs?
>>>
>>> IMHO, this shouldn't be a blocker since I don't think it represents
>>> many users but I still think we must not forget them.
>>>
>>> On Mon, 2016-11-07 at 18:31 -0500, Steven Yi wrote:
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> I'm all for the single installer with different module download
>>>> options.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 6:19 PM, John McDonnell <mcdonnell.john@gmail=
=2E
>>>> com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7 Nov 2016, at 23:13, Geertjan Wielenga <geertjan.wielenga@goo
>>>>>> glemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the above would actually be a big improvement over the
>>>>>> current
>>>>>> situation where there are multiple downloads.
>>>>>
>>>>> +1
>>>>>
>>>>> A single download would definitely be simpler and this
>>>>> languages/technology choice could just be an extension of the
>>>>> current plugin mechanism.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7 Nov 2016, at 23:13, Geertjan Wielenga <geertjan.wielenga@goo
>>>>>> glemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good question and unclear at this point what the solution should
>>>>>> be.
>>>>>> Personally, wouldn't it be simplest to have one single download
>>>>>> (certainly
>>>>>> simpler than the current situation) and then the installer asks
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> languages/technologies you need? If, among others, Java is
>>>>>> selected,
>>>>>> nb-javac (simply two JAR files, by the way, at the end of the
>>>>>> day) would be
>>>>>> downloaded and installed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the above would actually be a big improvement over the
>>>>>> current
>>>>>> situation where there are multiple downloads.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gj
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 12:05 AM, John McDonnell <mcdonnell.john@g
>>>>>> mail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So how do you see this going forward?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Currently we have 6 download packages, will we have multiple
>>>>>>> ones when we
>>>>>>> Apache Netbeans is released?, or will we have 4 downloads
>>>>>>> (HTML+Javascript,
>>>>>>> PHP & C/C++, ALL), but the installer always gives the option to
>>>>>>> install
>>>>>>> Java?  As I think I could get behind that, provided we don=E2=80=99=
t
>>>>>>> forget to
>>>>>>> advertise that Java is a =E2=80=9Cfirst class citizen=E2=80=9D in=
 the Netbeans
>>>>>>> Ecosystem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 7 Nov 2016, at 22:56, Geertjan Wielenga <
>>>>>>> geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It would be a smooth process via the installer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gj
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 11:43 PM, John Yeary <johnyeary@gmail.
>>>>>>>> com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hello All,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I agree with John.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One of the things that I really find annoying about Eclipse
>>>>>>>>> is that you
>>>>>>>>> have all of these options, and as a new user it is a
>>>>>>>>> daunting task to
>>>>>>> pick
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> what you need, or even KNOW what you need.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If we start asking new users to go download modules to make
>>>>>>>>> it a
>>>>>>> functional
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> IDE, it is a non-starter. The ease of use that NetBeans is
>>>>>>>>> known for
>>>>>>>>> suddenly is no longer.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ____________________________
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John Yeary
>>>>>>>>> ____________________________
>>>>>>>>> *NetBeans Dream Team*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Founder Greenville Java Users GroupJava Users Groups
>>>>>>>>> Community Leader*
>>>>>>>>> ____________________________
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <http://javaevangelist.blogspot.com/>  <https://twitter.com
>>>>>>>>> /jyeary>
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/johnyeary>  <http://www.linkedin.co
>>>>>>>>> m/in/jyeary>
>>>>>>>>> <https://plus.google.com/112146428878473069965>
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.facebook.com/jyeary>
>>>>>>>>> <http://feeds.feedburner.com/JavaEvangelistJohnYearysBlog>
>>>>>>>>> <http://netbeans.org/people/84414-jyeary>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious
>>>>>>>>> triumphs, even
>>>>>>>>> though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those
>>>>>>>>> poor spirits
>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in
>>>>>>>>> the gray
>>>>>>> twilight
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> that knows not victory nor defeat."
>>>>>>>>> -- Theodore Roosevelt
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 5:28 PM, John McDonnell <
>>>>>>> mcdonnell.john@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> HI,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To me Netbeans has always been first and foremost a Java
>>>>>>>>>> IDE.  This
>>>>>>> move
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> now seems to be making Java an optional extra to Netbeans
>>>>>>>>>> that means I
>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> to head off somewhere else to get this nb-javac module.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Now I was probably wrong in always thinking that NB is a
>>>>>>>>>> Java IDE first
>>>>>>>>>> and foremost, as when I go to the Downloads[1] page 3 of
>>>>>>>>>> the 6
>>>>>>>>>> download-able packages don=E2=80=99t contain Java.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is it worth getting download numbers for each of the 5
>>>>>>>>>> packages and
>>>>>>>>> seeing
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> what % of user base this change would effect currently?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Will this additional download drive Java Developers away
>>>>>>>>>> from Netbeans?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [1]: https://netbeans.org/downloads/
>>>>>>>>>> <https://netbeans.org/downloads/>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 7 Nov 2016, at 15:27, Geertjan Wielenga <
>>>>>>>>>> geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Shan Curcuru wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As a non-regular NetBeans user, I have a clarifying
>>>>>>>>>>>> question from a
>>>>>>>>>>>> *newcomers* perspective that I think will help on the
>>>>>>>>>>>> "ASF code means
>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> licensing surprises" side.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 1- Yes. Assuming we resolve other issues that are going
>>>>>>>>>>> to be coming
>>>>>>>>> up,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> i.e., nb-javac is the current hurdle we're focusing on,
>>>>>>>>>>> though there
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> smaller ones to follow unrelated to this specific legal
>>>>>>>>>>> issue that
>>>>>>>>> we're
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> now focused on. [See
>>>>>>>>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/
>>>>>>>>>> Overview%3A+NetBeans+Structure
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> to predict upcoming legal discussions.]
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2- Yes.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 3- Yes.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 4- Yes.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, and I agree, what we're doing is in sync with
>>>>>>>>>>> the "ASF code
>>>>>>>>> means
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> no licensing surprises" side.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Gj
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Shane Curcuru <asf@shan
>>>>>>>>>>> ecurcuru.org>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2016-11-06 15:01 (-0500), Geertjan Wielenga
>>>>>>>>>>>> <geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote: > On Sun,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Nov 6, 2016 at
>>>>>>>>> 4:59
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> PM, Ate Douma wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Geertjan and others already clarified and are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> documenting the
>>>>>>>>>>>> modularity of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NetBeans [2], with the core NetBeans platform
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being the only
>>>>>>>>> required
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> part.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All other modules (or clusters) being optional.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So many users might not need the NetBeans Java
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cluster.
>>>>>>>>>>>> ...snip...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As a non-regular NetBeans user, I have a clarifying
>>>>>>>>>>>> question from a
>>>>>>>>>>>> *newcomers* perspective that I think will help on the
>>>>>>>>>>>> "ASF code means
>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> licensing surprises" side.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1- If I want a great IDE where I can edit my C,
>>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript, PHP, HTML
>>>>>>>>>>>> and other non-Java code, and check it in, build it,
>>>>>>>>>>>> etc. - can I
>>>>>>>>>>>> download NetBeans (plus perhaps some other modules)
>>>>>>>>>>>> where *all* of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> source code I'm downloading is under a Category A
>>>>>>>>>>>> license?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2- If I then want to use NetBeans to edit/build Java
>>>>>>>>>>>> code, apparently
>>>>>>>>>>>> (as a new user) I need this nb-javac module from
>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhere else which
>>>>>>>>>>>> lets NetBeans the product do "useful stuff" with
>>>>>>>>>>>> Oracle's current
>>>>>>>>> Java,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> correct?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Java developers today would understand that Oracle's
>>>>>>>>>>>> Java platform -
>>>>>>>>>>>> which is widely known and used - has GPL related code
>>>>>>>>>>>> in it, so they
>>>>>>>>>>>> should not be surprised when they have to go download
>>>>>>>>>>>> nb-javac from
>>>>>>>>>>>> Oracle, nor should they be surprised when the sources
>>>>>>>>>>>> for nb-javac
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> also licensed under the GPL.  Does that make sense?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 3- Java developers who want to use NetBeans + nb-
>>>>>>>>>>>> javac to build their
>>>>>>>>>>>> own Apache-licensed Java programs for redistribution
>>>>>>>>>>>> would never need
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> worry about the GPL, because it would be clear as a
>>>>>>>>>>>> Java programmer
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> regular IDE user that the license of the IDE I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>> using to write/build
>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> code doesn't affect the license I can use on the code
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm writing in
>>>>>>>>>>>> that IDE.  Correct?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If all three of those are "Yes", then I'm +1 for this
>>>>>>>>>>>> solution and +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> for LEGAL-279.  The separation between Apache
>>>>>>>>>>>> licensed Netbeans as an
>>>>>>>>>>>> IDE and the underlying tooling integration with the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Java compiler
>>>>>>>>>>>> tooling using GPL seems clear, and given any
>>>>>>>>>>>> experienced Java
>>>>>>>>> developer,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> they would not be surprised to see the licensing
>>>>>>>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 4- If I want to extend the editing features in
>>>>>>>>>>>> NetBeans for Java code
>>>>>>>>>>>> (which I think you call "Java cluster"?), can I use
>>>>>>>>>>>> the Apache
>>>>>>> license
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> for patches and redistribution of the NetBeans editor
>>>>>>>>>>>> code that
>>>>>>>>> displays
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> the UI, syntax coloring, etc. elements?  I.e. is the
>>>>>>>>>>>> editor portion
>>>>>>>>>>>> going to be all Apache, and it's just the compiler
>>>>>>>>>>>> (when tooling
>>>>>>>>>>>> integration sends code off to do bytecode) that is
>>>>>>>>>>>> under GPL?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> - Shane
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> --
>>> Julien Enselme
>>> http://www.jujens.eu/
>>
>