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From Frank Nimphius <frank.nimph...@oracle.com>
Subject Re: Doubt about ADF Faces & Trinidad
Date Mon, 03 Mar 2008 10:41:16 GMT
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Stephen,<br>
<br>
some comments to your concerns, especially in regards to the new JSF
component library Oracle builds<br>
<br>
* it took forever to negotiate the legals of the first adf faces drop,
then it took another
<br>
&nbsp; eternity until Trinidad 1.0 and again it took a series of minor
releases until Trinidad was
<br>
&nbsp; mostly stable
<br>
<i><br>
<font color="#ff0000">Yeah, it took a while to get Trinidad out of
incubation, but I think that good stuff needs time to mature. <br>
The Apache folks take good care that no rubbish appears on their
website and that all projects are with<br>
a healthy community driving them. Frankly -&nbsp; I am quite thankful for
this.</font></i><br>
<br>
* Oracle employees still do most of the work
<br>
<br>
<i><font color="#ff0000">Because we have an interest in this component
set because it replaces ADF Faces in JDeveloper 11. In this<br>
regard, Oracle is a customer of Trinidad and happy to contribute as
good as we can<br>
</font></i><br>
* many people enjoy working on experimental stuff or whatever else they
like, all while
<br>
&nbsp; bugs that affect basic functionality pile up in Jira
<br>
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><i>I think that all software products suffer from
that, especially if bug fixing is on a voluntary basis. In commercial
software<br>
the author of a class fixes it if it has a defect. The open source
model however is different and anybody in the community<br>
can provide the fix</i></font><br>
<br>
* documentation is, hm, let's say minimal. There isn't even some kind
of visual index to the
<br>
&nbsp; components. No small usage example at each component's tag docs.&nbsp;
That is even a step <br>
&nbsp; backwards from ADF Faces.
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><i><br>
I think that ADF Faces was just a headstart for Trinidad not to start
from scratch. Trinidad is a component set on its own and while Oracle<br>
has professional doc writers building the collateral, Trinidad is
dependent on volunteers and their contributors to make sure the
documentation<br>
improves with the product. I also think that filing bugs on
documentation is a first step into the right direction</i></font><br>
<br>
* Now instead of working on Trinidad 2.0 Oracle decides to do yet
another component library.
<br>
&nbsp; Discussions about the initial drop are undergoing, so we might see a
1.0 release in 2010.
<br>
&nbsp; By then it will be largely incompatible to the initial drop with all
the subtle difference
<br>
&nbsp; being poorly documented.
<br>
<br>
<font color="#ff0000"><i>I think you misunderstood Oracle's role in
Trinidad. We contribute to Trinidad and meanwhile have our own projects
that we need to drive for internal and <br>
external customers. we also spend developer resources on our own
JDeveloper IDE, EJB, JPA, ADF binding etc. The ADF Faces rich client
component <br>
project is a step towards simplifying Ajax development. Its a
pioneering work that - once this is released to open source - again
becomes a major headstart <br>
for the community</i></font><br>
<br>
<br>
<i>"[...]I recently spent so much time debugging and trying to beat
skinning into form, work around incompatibilities between Trinidad and
Seam, etc.
<br>
I ended up writing a couple of custom components for the core
functionality.All in all the effort would have been smaller if I just
went with JSP <br>
from the start[...]<br>
<br>
<font color="#ff0000">Sure, the problem however is neither Trinidad nor
Seam but the combination of the two. It is not uncommon that different
component sets don't integrate well<br>
with each other. In the Web Services space it required a WS
interoperability group to solve incompatibility issues. I think the
same is needed for JavaServer Faces,<br>
especially because we know that Ajax in JSF wont make things better
automatically (I suspect this to become worse instead). So the question
is if incompatibility is<br>
a reason to stick with JSP or if it should be a motivation to look for
how this can be changed to the better. </font></i><br>
<br>
<br>
Frank<br>
<br>
<br>
Stephen Friedrich wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid47C86397.3090802@eekboom.com" type="cite">Mark
Millman wrote:
  <br>
  <blockquote type="cite">The quality of Trinidad it a testament to how
Open Source communities work best.
    <br>
  </blockquote>
  <br>
Well, ...
  <br>
I don't really agree, but maybe I am not involved deeply enough in the
community to judge.
  <br>
Without wanting to offend anyone personally - it seems to me that
  <br>
* it took forever to negotiate the legals of the first adf faces drop,
then it took another
  <br>
&nbsp; eternity until Trinidad 1.0 and again it took a series of minor
releases until Trinidad was
  <br>
&nbsp; mostly stable
  <br>
* Oracle employees still do most of the work
  <br>
* many people enjoy working on experimental stuff or whatever else they
like, all while
  <br>
&nbsp; bugs that affect basic functionality pile up in Jira
  <br>
* documentation is, hm, let's say minimal. There isn't even some kind
of visual index to the
  <br>
&nbsp; components. No small usage example at each component's tag docs.
  <br>
&nbsp; That is even a step backwards from ADF Faces.
  <br>
* Now instead of working on Trinidad 2.0 Oracle decides to do yet
another component library.
  <br>
&nbsp; Discussions about the initial drop are undergoing, so we might see a
1.0 release in 2010.
  <br>
&nbsp; By then it will be largely incompatible to the initial drop with all
the subtle difference
  <br>
&nbsp; being poorly documented.
  <br>
  <br>
I like JSF in principle, but it is still lacking a professional,
complete, standard compliant
  <br>
and compatible components set.
  <br>
  <br>
Sorry if I sound harsh, but I recently spent so much time debugging and
trying to beat
  <br>
skinning into form, work around incompatibilities between Trinidad and
Seam, etc.
  <br>
I ended up writing a couple of custom components for the core
functionality.
  <br>
All in all the effort would have been smaller if I just went with JSP
from the start.
  <br>
  <br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 

________________________________
Frank Nimphius
Principal Product Manager
Application Development Tools
Oracle Corporation
mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:frank.nimphius@oracle.com">frank.nimphius@oracle.com</a>
phone:+49 2058 782481</pre>
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