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From "Rob Decker" <...@objectsource.org>
Subject Re: JSF + Spring + Hibernate
Date Thu, 01 Sep 2005 13:51:35 GMT
Reading is good...let me know when you find the book that tells you how to
start with the correct model. I definitely want to get a copy ;)

Rob

@objectsource.org


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Haynes" <david.haynes2@sympatico.ca>
To: "MyFaces Discussion" <users@myfaces.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: JSF + Spring + Hibernate


> Well, there was no smiley on this, so I will assume you are serious in
> your question.
>
> This may have been true for Thomas Edison, but I don't think you went
> out and tried to build your own light bulb. Even if you did, you would
> use the knowledge that you observed from looking at Edison's working
> version (and via the patent would be able to see how Edison's worked).
>
> I don't claim to be an Edison, but I can learn from them instead of
> starting with first principles every time. There is a book series called
> "Think in Java" that doesn't spend a lot of time documenting every
> feature of the Java language but, instead, talks about how to think
> about your problem in terms of the Java programming model. What I was
> expressing was my desire for something similar for data-coupled web
> applications.
>
> -david-
>
> Rob Decker wrote:
>
> >What makes you think you start with the correct model? You have to be
able
> >to create 2000 incorrect models; then you can create the correct one.
Just
> >ask Thomas Edison.
> >
> >
> >Rob
> >
> >@objectsource.org
> >
> >----- Original Message ----- 
> >From: "David Haynes" <david.haynes2@sympatico.ca>
> >To: "MyFaces Discussion" <users@myfaces.apache.org>
> >Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 9:00 AM
> >Subject: Re: JSF + Spring + Hibernate
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>I'm going through that phase now waiting for the epiphany to strike...
> >>
> >>What I would really like is an article about thinking in ORM (ala
> >>Hibernate or EJB) that doesn't talk about how the APIs are put together
> >>but, instead, deals with concepts like: this is how to think about
> >>modeling in ORM, this is how to structure stuff in Hibernate for a
> >>data-backed bean, or this is how to set up your source area to make all
> >>this a little clearer. A diagrammatic modeling method would also be of
> >>great value. Heck, even a suggested naming practice would be nice! Is
> >>that XxxAction, XxxController, XxxBean, XxxBackingBean, XxxModel,
> >>XxxDAO, etc.?
> >>
> >>Maybe I'm being a little selfish, but it seems to me that the majority
> >>of postings about backing-store issues are from poor sods such as myself
> >>who are trying to simply create data-coupled web applications that won't
> >>fall apart with the first change. (i.e. that use well structured
> >>toolkits to assist). With all the options that are available, it is
> >>difficult to get one scenario working, let alone being able to compare
> >>solutions in some meaningful way. Every time an issue comes up, the
> >>answer seems to be to add another software layer, from another
> >>development group, with another model/philosophy for how the solution
> >>should be coded. Having reference implementations helps to some degree,
> >>but if you are missing the fundamental concepts, the reference
> >>implementations can end up being confusing since they tend to highlight
> >>the differences/features of the particular implementation over the
> >>competition. Even the books with implementations in them tend to dive
> >>directly into the code without addressing the modeling aspect and the
> >>thinking that goes into creating the correct model to begin with.
> >>
> >>-david-
> >>
> >>Joshua Davis wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Sorry 'bout the head banging! :(  If there's anything I can do to help,
> >>>
> >>>
> >let
> >
> >
> >>>me know.
> >>>
> >>>You are absolutely, positively 100% correct about 'getting a grip' on
> >>>Hibernate.
> >>>
> >>>It's actually more fundamental than that: You need to have a good
> >>>understanding of ORM in general in order to use Hibernate (or EJB
> >>>
> >>>
> >Entities,
> >
> >
> >>>or TOPLink, etc.) effectively.  For me, understanding ORM was a 'leap'
> >>>
> >>>
> >that
> >
> >
> >>>was similar to when I went from structured programming to OOP.
> >>>
> >>>joshua@hibernate.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Werner Punz
> >>>>Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 3:56 AM
> >>>>To: users@myfaces.apache.org
> >>>>Subject: Re: JSF + Spring + Hibernate
> >>>>
> >>>>One of the reasons why I am not that much a friend of
> >>>>Hibernate anymore.
> >>>>I did 4 projects with it, and the problems always were the same...
> >>>>Overkill in mapping details, Session handling and choking on
> >>>>pojos in which made things more complicated than they should
> >>>>be, failurs in dependency resolution on write over more
> >>>>complicated data structures, which then had to be resolved manually...
> >>>>
> >>>>Constant banging the heads on small stuff, like having a
> >>>>clean and proper way to resolve m:n issues. Sometimes there
> >>>>are errors where Hibernate simply does nothing but does not
> >>>>even throw errors.
> >>>>
> >>>>Dont get me wrong, Hibernate is an excellent tool, and
> >>>>basically has solved most of not all issues you constantly
> >>>>run into with Object Relational mappins and OODBs, but it is
> >>>>options overkill and definitely not easy to handle.
> >>>>I am not sure which is more complicated the EJB approach or
> >>>>the options overkill in Hibernate, which does not force you
> >>>>into anything, but often simply fails with leaving you
> >>>>standing in the rain.
> >>>>
> >>>>My opinion is, there must be some kind of middle way, to give
> >>>>you enough flexibility but does not push you into such a huge
> >>>>complex layer, Hibernate has evolved into, also 90% of the
> >>>>main problem you constantly have with hibernate is the
> >>>>complicated way the session handles the pojos... Dump the
> >>>>wrong pojo into the session and you get a object has been
> >>>>used failure.... Run out of the session hibernate chokes on
> >>>>lazy access instead of trying to resolve the problem by
> >>>>opening another one and trying to load the rest automatically...
> >>>>
> >>>>I would say, Hibernate is the worst/best working solution you
> >>>>can get from OSS in regards to ORM mapping, but one thing is
> >>>>for sure, it made things definitely not easier, although if
> >>>>you have a grip on it, you can save a lot of time, but
> >>>>aquiring the grip is a hard task, even with the excellent docs.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>


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