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From "Kito D. Mann" <km...@virtua.com>
Subject Re: Shale and MyFaces (was Re: How to execute bean method before JSF page is loaded?)
Date Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:46:58 GMT
Personally, I'm not convinced that Shale really should be part of the 
MyFaces project. If you look at JSF as a foundation for UI frameworks (and 
more sophisticated web frameworks in general), then hopefully we'll see it 
pop up in lots of different places (in my perfect world, even Tapestry 
would use JSF components). Placing all projects that use JSF under one 
umbrella may break over time as JSF grows. (For example, all Java projects 
are no longer part of Jakarta.)

Moreover, although Shale is based on JSF, it will hopefully be the next 
major revision of Struts. Struts has its own very strong brand, and it 
seems strange to pull Shale away from that.

That's my $0.02.

Kito D. Mann
Author, JavaServer Faces in Action
http://www.JSFCentral.com - JSF FAQ, news, and info

Are you using JSF in a project? Send an e-mail to trenches@jsfcentral.com 
and you could win a free copy of JavaServer Faces in Action!

At 02:29 AM 3/16/2005, you wrote:

>>Its an interesting idea.  There are a lot of details to work out but
>>it might not be a bad idea to start discussions about something like
>>this.
>
>Nice to hear that some of you like the *idea*. It was just only a idea
>for now and yes there must be provided more to be concret on something
>like that. Since there seams to be interesst it is worth to go that road.
>
>>I'm not sure I would agree that the MyFaces components belong in
>>Shale.  At the moment there seems to be three distinct projects:
>>myfaces (jsf api + impl), components (jsf + shale-only), shale.
>
>
>yes that's the best as far as I see. And perhaps a fourth subproject
>for sample apps; all JSF users could benefit from a wide range of sample
>apps
>
>>Shale has the token component, which I like, but seems a little out of
>>place.  If there were to be any reorganizing of things I think we
>>could like that component up with the stand alone components of
>>myfaces.
>
>
>yes token could also be inside of "JSF Components" (or how you could call 
>such a subproject)
>
>>I suggest we keep working together closely and keep the discussions
>>going and see where that takes us.
>
>Yes, that is right! It is should be the best for the users of the JSF spec.
>
>The benefit from a *big* Apache Faces project is
>a) users *can* (not must) use a impl. that is shipped under a liberal 
>licence (Apache2.0)
>b)Having lot's of cool components for a usage with *any* JSF impl.
>c)Having a framework ontop of JSF to leverage the development of JSF web 
>app (also not bound to a specific JSF impl)
>
>-Matthias
>
>
>>sean
>>
>>On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:58:56 -0800 (PST), Ray Clark
>><rcc1234567@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>+1
>>>
>>>After all Shale is a JSF project along with MyFaces.
>>>So organizing them in one place and making it so that
>>>people can plug and play what they want sounds ideal.
>>>
>>>--- David Geary <sabreware@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>It would be great to have one-stop shopping of sorts
>>>>for Apache
>>>>projects related to JSF. I like grouping JSF-related
>>>>projects and
>>>>decoupling unrelated pieces at the same time. Apache
>>>>Portals looks like
>>>>a good candidate to emulate.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>david
>>>>
>>>>Le Mar 15, 2005, à 1:55 PM, Matthias Wessendorf a
>>>>écrit :
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>David,
>>>>>
>>>>>I am just about to answer Craig regarding his
>>>>
>>>>post...
>>>>
>>>>>But you said it very very clear to something I
>>>>
>>>>just thought...
>>>>
>>>>>So here is my post...
>>>>>
>>>>>Take a look at Apache Portals, that is something I
>>>>
>>>>have in mind on
>>>>
>>>>>*long term*
>>>>>
>>>>>There could be a similar Toplevel Project btw.
>>>>
>>>>name it "Apache Faces".
>>>>
>>>>>One of the subprojects could be MyFaces, since it
>>>>
>>>>is a implementation
>>>>
>>>>>of the Faces Spec.
>>>>>
>>>>>Another could subprojects could contain only
>>>>
>>>>custom components
>>>>
>>>>>Another could host some sample apps that explain
>>>>
>>>>the "usage" of Faces
>>>>
>>>>>(with and without the custom components)
>>>>>
>>>>>And also Shale could be a subproject of that
>>>>
>>>>Apache Faces project,
>>>>
>>>>>since
>>>>>Shale is a (cool) framework that leverages JSF.
>>>>>
>>>>>Let me come back to Portals, they host pluto
>>>>
>>>>(portlet impl. (yes RI))
>>>>
>>>>>and some usages like remote portals and Jetspeed
>>>>
>>>>portal stuff.
>>>>
>>>>>So why not "copy" that what strutcture, since it
>>>>
>>>>was/is good for
>>>>
>>>>>Portlet technology, for the JavaServer Faces
>>>>
>>>>technology ?
>>>>
>>>>>BTW. I hope it's not to radical ;)
>>>>>
>>>>>-Matthias
>>>>>
>>>>>David Geary wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>This begs the question of why MyFaces components
>>>>
>>>>aren't a project of
>>>>
>>>>>>their own. An FAQ on this mailing list is whether
>>>>
>>>>the MyFaces
>>>>
>>>>>>components will work with the RI, so there's some
>>>>
>>>>confusion as to why
>>>>
>>>>>>MyFaces has components that aren't
>>>>
>>>>MyFaces-specific.
>>>>
>>>>>>Perhaps Shale should absorb the MyFaces
>>>>
>>>>components. 8-)
>>>>
>>>>>>david
>>>>>>Le Mar 15, 2005, à 11:32 AM, Craig McClanahan a
>>>>
>>>>écrit :
>>>>
>>>>>>>On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:43:08 +0100, Matthias
>>>>
>>>>Wessendorf
>>>>
>>>>>>>[snip]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Fine! Working together should be the best JSF
>>>>
>>>>user could get,
>>>>
>>>>>>>>independent from which Impl of JSF Spec they
>>>>
>>>>might use.
>>>>
>>>>>>>Absolutely.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It is very important, that Shale works with
>>>>
>>>>MyFaces
>>>>
>>>>>>>>(it does, I am "playing" with both during
>>>>
>>>>learning Shale ;))
>>>>
>>>>>>>Shale tries to make zero non-spec assumptions
>>>>
>>>>about the underlying
>>>>
>>>>>>>implementation, so working with both MyFaces and
>>>>
>>>>the RI will keep me
>>>>
>>>>>>>honest too :-).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Also MyFaces' extra components should work with
>>>>
>>>>Shale;
>>>>
>>>>>>>>haven't looked at the remote thing in Shale.
>>>>
>>>>"Only" looked
>>>>
>>>>>>>>in "ViewController" and I am fascinated about
>>>>
>>>>that! But
>>>>
>>>>>>>>session scoped "DialogController" seams also to
>>>>
>>>>be very usefull.
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Word of caution -- DialogController is likely to
>>>>
>>>>be undergoing some
>>>>
>>>>>>>revisions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>As you also pointed out, that we are discussing
>>>>
>>>>the subproject
>>>>
>>>>>>>>issue, does it make sense for you, to host
>>>>
>>>>Shale at MyFaces?
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If the scope of MyFaces had been "We want to
>>>>
>>>>create a JSF
>>>>
>>>>>>>spec-compliant implementation, *and* we want to
>>>>
>>>>build other things
>>>>
>>>>>>>that depend on JSF" it might be a good fit.
>>>>
>>>>Since the scope actually
>>>>
>>>>>>>seems to be "We want to create a JSF
>>>>
>>>>spec-compliant implementation,
>>>>
>>>>>>>and oh by the way here are some cool components"
>>>>
>>>>that wasn't as good
>>>>
>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>fit as Struts, where the mission is to create a
>>>>
>>>>web app framework.
>>>>
>>>>>>>For now, Shale got accepted as a Struts
>>>>
>>>>sub-project.  Whether it
>>>>
>>>>>>>stays
>>>>>>>there, or migrates here, or graduates to its own
>>>>
>>>>status in the future
>>>>
>>>>>>>-- that's going to depend on what actually
>>>>
>>>>happens.  In the mean
>>>>
>>>>>>>time,
>>>>>>>we can work together on value adds, and figure
>>>>
>>>>out how to share as we
>>>>
>>>>>>>go.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Shale should be build on top of JSF API, like
>>>>
>>>>our components.
>>>>
>>>>>>>Yep.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Since Shale is a framework that tries to
>>>>
>>>>leverages JSF,
>>>>
>>>>>>>>I see some "overlap" in MyFaces' custom
>>>>
>>>>components and Shale (and
>>>>
>>>>>>>>its
>>>>>>>>components). Also both "teams" will have some
>>>>
>>>>util classes, that do
>>>>
>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>same stuff for providing helper methods,
>>>>
>>>>independent from a specific
>>>>
>>>>>>>>implementation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>see: http://tinyurl.com/4zhd7
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Although, as I remarked in reponse to this
>>>>
>>>>particular post, I'm tired
>>>>
>>>>>>>of getting burned by implementing static helper
>>>>
>>>>classes :-).
>>>>
>>>>>>>But your point is well taken.  Where does one
>>>>
>>>>create components that
>>>>
>>>>>>>have Shale dependencies, for example?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>or the mentioned "client side validation" or
>>>>
>>>>"file upload component"
>>>>
>>>>>>>>for instance.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It's going to be interesting to work these
>>>>
>>>>things out.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>-Matthias
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Craig
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>Matthias Weßendorf
>>>>>Aechterhoek 18
>>>>>DE-48282 Emsdetten
>>>>>Germany
>>>>>phone: +49-2572-9170275
>>>>>cell phone: +49-179-1118979
>>>>>email: matzew AT apache DOT org
>>>>>url: http://www.wessendorf.net
>>>>>callto://mwessendorf (Skype)
>>>>>icq: 47016183
>>>=== message truncated ===
>>>
>>>
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