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From Werner Punz <>
Subject Re: jsf.js post 2.3 plans
Date Thu, 05 Oct 2017 12:36:11 GMT
Yeah given the timeframe, I guess IE11 is perfectly fine. We cannot
expect JSF 2.4 to hit the final spec before 2019, by then even
corporate support of Windows 7 will come to an end.

The main problem I see is that we probably will be stuck with supporting
IE11 for many years, since Microsoft still basically packs it in with 
every windows 10 sort of as secondary browser. So IE11 support will die 
about 10 years after Microsoft stops doing it.

And believe me even IE11
is currently the bottom barrely quality and speedwise you currently get
in the browser space. Even frameworks like Angular 1 basically drive the 
IE11 engine to its limits, the more shims you add it the bigger the 
browser becomes as a problem in day to day development.

I guess we once will hit the point where we will say we cannot support 
it anymore. Not now not in 2 years but sometime in the future.


Am 05.10.17 um 14:12 schrieb Mike Kienenberger:
> I think it's ok for us to say that the baseline is IE11.   If you are
> concerned, take a poll on the users list.
> On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 3:43 AM, Thomas Andraschko
> <> wrote:
>> Hi Werner,
>> big +1 for doing a completely new jsf.js!
>> Basically it would be really great to use another lang as plain js.
>> But there is also another downside: most webdevelopers and commiters of
>> MyFaces are fimilar with plain js but maybe not with TypeScript or else.
>> But i think we should do it if can we can easily integrate it somehow in our
>> maven builds.
>> My personal opinion is that i would prefer plain js if the developers must
>> install nodejs etc. on their machines. If everything is done by maven in the
>> background, it's ok for me.
>> As you already said, we actually must avoid dependencies like kotlin.js and
>> jquery.js - thats a no go and also not really required.
>> Regards,
>> Thomas
>> 2017-10-05 9:19 GMT+02:00 Werner Punz <>:
>>> Hi guys
>>> I just wanted to start a discussion on how we are going to proceed with
>>> the jsf.js codebase.
>>> The issue is following:
>>> Our codebase which currently is adapted by me for 2.3 is rather old.
>>> It by now is around 9-10 years old and back then most of the stuff I did
>>> made sense
>>> a) The library needed to be self contained
>>> b) There were an awful lot of browsers in use, which did not adhere to any
>>> standards whatsoever
>>> c) There was no real inheritance system available just the prototype
>>> system which is one level below inheritance by allowing to access the
>>> class/object tree and manipulate it on the fly
>>> So what I did was following
>>> Implement my own class system for not having to deal with prototype
>>> inheritance all the time
>>> Since I needed to be self contained integrating a library like JQuery
>>> (which also was it its infancy at that time) was out of the question
>>> due to possible conflicts. There also was no widespread support
>>> for querySelector on node level some browsers had it some browsers
>>> had other workarounds to speed the dom node lookup up.
>>> Also no unified ajax handling, the ajax api was at its infancy and I still
>>> had to support the archaic IE way of doing things.
>>> To the worse there were significant differences in dom and xml handling
>>> between the various browsers out in the wild compared to the already
>>> defined standards (I am speaking of you IE and mobile browsers in use back
>>> then)
>>> So in the end I ended up with a codebase which is about 40-50% there just
>>> to support legacy browsers. While I did some work to isolate the quirks code
>>> and compile it out of the codebase there still is work to be done.
>>> Again all of this made sense back then...
>>> Lots of things have been changed in those 10 years and now most of the
>>> things do not make sense anymore.
>>> a) We have saner meta languages which allow to compile to javascript,
>>> following candidates come to my mind
>>> - Typescript, a language which I amn very familiar with due to my day to
>>> day work
>>> - Coffeescript ... not very familiar with that one
>>> - Kotlin... yes that one also has a javascript target compiler
>>> We definitely should opt for a meta compiler instead of pure js.
>>> The reasons are many, and I can speak here atm only for Typescript
>>> - You can change ecma script levels on build level
>>> - You can change the package management system in build level
>>> - You get additional coding security by having the apis fortified at least
>>> with some types instead of doing constantly your manual asserts
>>> - In the end the Meta language codebase is way cleaner than the original
>>> one
>>> The downside is
>>> at least for typescript the maven integration is non existent, there is a
>>> maven clientside plugin which downloads the entire node js chain onto your
>>> machine within a build, but my guess is we do not need to do this
>>> for the apache integration builds, because in the end we just need the js
>>> codebase. We can add special dev profile which enables the client side build
>>> to build the js files.
>>> As for Kotlin, I have not evalauted their javascript stuff but what put me
>>> off was that the website said you have to integrate kotlin.js which is a no
>>> go, but this depends, if kotlin.js just implements their runtime lib we can
>>> probably bypass that. I need to have a serious look at it.
>>> The plus side probably is that it has decent maven support and a perfect
>>> IDE support on the Jetbrains IDEs. (Dont get me wrong the IDE support
>>> of Typescript also is very good on those, I use it on a daily base)
>>> Browser support:
>>> Since mobile browsers are up to rather recent standards nowadays the
>>> problem is the desktop which at least in a corporate environment is moving
>>> really slowly (I wonder corporations are really cautious regarding security
>>> and yet often use stone old often outdated not updated anymore, browsers -
>>> but that is just a snarky sidenote). But still there things have gotten
>>> better.
>>>  From a browser support standpoint we probably can strip the support pre
>>> IE9 level which means we finally at least can use a standard ajax api, ajax
>>> multiform requests instead of the iframe hack I had to introduce for jsf
>>> 2.2.
>>> I would prefer to have IE11 as baseline, given that most corporations
>>> probably have frozen their environment on a Windows 7 IE11 baseline by now,
>>> but I guess we have to drag at least IE9 with us with some third party lib
>>> support.
>>> By mildly adding small external libraries and avoiding shims
>>> we might get a small query monadish api on top of node.selectorAll like
>>> jquery.
>>> I still would avoid to integrate jquery because we have a core lib
>>> so everything integrated needs to be small. We do not have the luxury of
>>> for instance Prime Faces which can require or bundle a huge lib like JQuery
>>> and JQuery UI.
>>> Also we definitely would need promises (again rip the code out of a proven
>>> shim lib  but do not shim it, if it is not supported by the browser
>>> natively)
>>> So my proposal is, after 2.3 I will start with a reimplementation which
>>> might take some time in a saner environment and with a newly defined
>>> baseline.
>>> And once I am done we can drop it in as alternative jsf.js codebase
>>> for the users (we still keep the old one for 2.3)
>>> And for 2.4 upwards we will drop the legacy codebase entirely and just
>>> use the new reworked and cleaned up one.
>>> Just a little bit of food for discussion.
>>> Werner

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