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From Mike Kienenberger <mkien...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [html5] alpha release for myfaces html5
Date Wed, 02 Nov 2011 21:12:35 GMT
I guess the question is what are you (all) trying to accomplish?

If we have active committers who want to create an html5 subproject,
it seems like our policy thus far is to create it.

If we only have a code-dump, it should go through the incubator -- we
have done this with other things which are now myfaces subprojects.
If enough of the incubated project members are myfaces committers,
then it would likely become a myfaces subproject.   If there is no
overlap, it would have to find its own place.   Working out how much
is "enough" and training up non-myfaces-committers would be the task
of incubation.

If the goal is to change our policies for new subprojects, then I
don't see that incubation or apache labs is really relevant -- we're
only talking about our own internal organization.    And if we're
changing our policies, I would hope that whatever we come up with
applies to all existing projects as well as new projects.  Or, in
other words, we shouldn't be treating the html5 subproject any
differently than we do anything else.

Sandbox was a good start, but we've been having issues with getting
things out of sandbox for several years now.   I suspect this is why
the trend recently has been to skip the sandbox and dive right in with
a new subproject.

While my personal preference would have been to reform the sandbox, I
wasn't really doing any of the work.   The folks doing the work have
been making the subprojects idea succeed, so from a meritocracy point
of view, I'd say that's the future, until something else better comes
along.

Maybe we're now at the point where some of us do want to see if we can
come up with something better.  Like I said, I personally think our
explosion of subprojects is disorganized and confusing.   But if
that's our goal, let's say so, and apply it to everything.  In the
meantime, my opinion is that if we have html5 committers, we allow the
html5 committers to have a subproject and move forward with a release.

Regards,
Mike

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 4:13 PM, Gerhard Petracek
<gerhard.petracek@gmail.com> wrote:
> @matthias:
> apache labs are only for prototyping and the next step is e.g. the
> incubator for building a community (see [1]).
>
> regards,
> gerhard
>
> [1] http://labs.apache.org/bylaws.html
>
> http://www.irian.at
>
> Your JSF powerhouse -
> JSF Consulting, Development and
> Courses in English and German
>
> Professional Support for Apache MyFaces
>
>
>
> 2011/11/2 Matthias Wessendorf <matzew@apache.org>:
>> that's stupid :-)
>>
>> Personal releases are IMO possible (e.g. deployment to p.a.o/~asf-id)
>>
>> -M
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 6:35 PM, Ali Ok <aliok@aliok.com.tr> wrote:
>>> One important point is labs projects are not allowed to make releases.
>>>
>>> Sent from Android
>>>
>>> On Nov 2, 2011 1:22 PM, "Gerhard Petracek" <gerhard.petracek@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> see [1] - esp.:
>>>>
>>>> >Apache Labs are the place where ASF committers can work on innovative,
>>>> > blue-sky and off-the-wall ideas, without having to worry about fitting
in an
>>>> > existing project bylaw or building a community around it...
>>>>
>>>> we already know that it works and it's just about a "community check"
>>>> -> imo labs doesn't fit and the alternative would be the incubator
>>>> itself.
>>>>
>>>> regards,
>>>> gerhard
>>>>
>>>> [1] http://labs.apache.org/bylaws.html
>>>>
>>>> http://www.irian.at
>>>>
>>>> Your JSF powerhouse -
>>>> JSF Consulting, Development and
>>>> Courses in English and German
>>>>
>>>> Professional Support for Apache MyFaces
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2011/11/2 Matthias Wessendorf <matzew@apache.org>:
>>>> > I don't get why not just having a simple alpha release ?
>>>> > Does not hurt... Or... move the entire thing to Apache Labs... for
>>>> > future experiments ?!
>>>> >
>>>> > -M
>>>> >
>>>> > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 12:03 AM, Ali Ok <aliok@aliok.com.tr> wrote:
>>>> >> Hi,
>>>> >> So do you think  myfaces/incubator/html5 is a good place?
>>>> >> Greetings,
>>>> >> Ali
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 1:37 PM, Ali Ok <aliok@aliok.com.tr>
wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Hi,
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> In my opinion as long this lib is html5 only it should not
be part of
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> the tomahawk project
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I agree, no relation with Tomahawk.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> a different idea would be a small myfaces-incubator for
new
>>>> >>>> project-ideas
>>>> >>>> (esp. for gsoc projects).
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Makes more sense to me than Tomahawk.
>>>> >>> I think (almost) everyone is in favor of moving the project
to
>>>> >>> somewhere
>>>> >>> else, I am also ok with it.
>>>> >>> Important thing for the project is having the ability for releases
and
>>>> >>> the
>>>> >>> jars are deployed to maven repo.
>>>> >>> Cheers,
>>>> >>> Ali
>>>> >>> On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 11:05 AM, Mark Struberg <struberg@yahoo.de>
>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> including our very own little 'attic' :)
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Actually the big difference between the incubator and a
mf subproject
>>>> >>>> would be the IP clearance. We really need to do this upfront
before
>>>> >>>> importing.
>>>> >>>> But actually I like this much more than having projects
developed
>>>> >>>> outside
>>>> >>>> and only later brought into our SVN - because this causes
lots of
>>>> >>>> paperwork
>>>> >>>> (gas grants and a IP clearance review is mandatory).
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Thus a +1
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> LieGrue,
>>>> >>>> strub
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >________________________________
>>>> >>>> >From: Gerhard Petracek <gerhard.petracek@gmail.com>
>>>> >>>> >To: MyFaces Development <dev@myfaces.apache.org>
>>>> >>>> >Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 10:58 AM
>>>> >>>> >Subject: Re: [html5] alpha release for myfaces html5
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >a different idea would be a small myfaces-incubator
for new
>>>> >>>> > project-ideas (esp. for gsoc projects).
>>>> >>>> >we can release parts easily and drop them if we see
that something
>>>> >>>> > doesn't work for our community. if an idea works for
the community,
>>>> >>>> > we can
>>>> >>>> > discuss the correct place for it.
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >we might see new gsoc projects (related to myfaces)
every year. imo
>>>> >>>> > it's
>>>> >>>> > the wrong approach to just add them as new sub-project
and we don't
>>>> >>>> > have the
>>>> >>>> > resources/community to maintain them.
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >regards,
>>>> >>>> >gerhard
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >http://www.irian.at
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >Your JSF powerhouse -
>>>> >>>> >JSF Consulting, Development and
>>>> >>>> >Courses in English and German
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >Professional Support for Apache MyFaces
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >2011/10/22 Bernd Bohmann <bernd.bohmann@atanion.com>
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >Ha, I don't think we should wait for the jsf-eg.
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>Hey guys they are asking for a alpha release.
>>>> >>>> >>In my opinion as long this lib is html5 only it
should not be part
>>>> >>>> >> of
>>>> >>>> >>the tomahawk project.
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>I don't see any problems in releasing an alpha release.
But before
>>>> >>>> >> a
>>>> >>>> >>beta we should decide own extension or tomahawk.
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>Regards
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>Bernd
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 9:31 AM, Gerhard Petracek
>>>> >>>> >><gerhard.petracek@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>> >>> it's planned that jsf2.2 will get some sort
of html5 support.
>>>> >>>> >>> imo we should work together with the jsf-eg
to ensure that we
>>>> >>>> >>> won't
>>>> >>>> >>> promote
>>>> >>>> >>> incompatible components.
>>>> >>>> >>> regards,
>>>> >>>> >>> gerhard
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.irian.at
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>> Your JSF powerhouse -
>>>> >>>> >>> JSF Consulting, Development and
>>>> >>>> >>> Courses in English and German
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>> Professional Support for Apache MyFaces
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>> 2011/10/22 Mark Struberg <struberg@yahoo.de>
>>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> +1 for moving it to tomahawk.
>>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> One big open question for me is our html5
strategy at all.
>>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> Will the html5 components provide legacy
html support themselfs?
>>>> >>>> >>>> Thus a calendar component will use jQuery
(or whatever) calendar
>>>> >>>> >>>> when a
>>>> >>>> >>>> non-html5 browser is detected,
>>>> >>>> >>>> or is this in the responsibility of the
developer?
>>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> if (html5){
>>>> >>>> >>>> aaaa
>>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> } else{
>>>> >>>> >>>>  bbbb //fallback
>>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> }
>>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> ?
>>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> Afaik our current html5 components 'only'
support pure html5
>>>> >>>> >>>> rendering,
>>>> >>>> >>>> isn't?
>>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> LieGrue,
>>>> >>>> >>>> strub
>>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >________________________________
>>>> >>>> >>>> >From: Gerhard Petracek <gerhard.petracek@gmail.com>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >To: MyFaces Development <dev@myfaces.apache.org>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 10:22
PM
>>>> >>>> >>>> >Subject: Re: [html5] alpha release
for myfaces html5
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >@grant: +1
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >regards,
>>>> >>>> >>>> >gerhard
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >http://www.irian.at
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >Your JSF powerhouse -
>>>> >>>> >>>> >JSF Consulting, Development and
>>>> >>>> >>>> >Courses in English and German
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >Professional Support for Apache MyFaces
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >2011/10/21 Grant Smith <work.grant@gmail.com>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >I must agree with Gerhard. The whole
point of the sandbox is
>>>> >>>> >>>> > for
>>>> >>>> >>>> > this
>>>> >>>> >>>> > very purpose. However, perhaps we
should look at the sandbox
>>>> >>>> >>>> > more
>>>> >>>> >>>> > often and
>>>> >>>> >>>> > vote on components that are ready
to "graduate".
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 1:12 PM,
Gerhard Petracek
>>>> >>>> >>>> >> <gerhard.petracek@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>hi leo,
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>imo such an argument doesn't justify
an own sub-project. i
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >don't< say
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -1. my point is that we should
discuss it (esp. because the
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> situation
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> changed).
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>regards,
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>gerhard
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>http://www.irian.at
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Your JSF powerhouse -
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>JSF Consulting, Development
and
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Courses in English and German
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Professional Support for Apache
MyFaces
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>2011/10/21 Leonardo Uribe <lu4242@gmail.com>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Hi
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>The problem with move to
tomahawk sandbox is those artifact
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> can't
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>never be released. Do an
alpha release give us the chance to
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> know if
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>the bits are good enough,
get more feedback, and later
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> decide
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> what to
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>do. The truth is some people
only test some artifacts
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "after" a
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>release. Do it as an alpha
release means "... software that
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> has
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> just
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>been compiled and ready
for its initial test inhouse. ...".
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> think
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>that is enough clear.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>regards,
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Leonardo Uribe
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>2011/10/21 Gerhard Petracek
<gerhard.petracek@gmail.com>:
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> hi ali,
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> most commits happened
"directly" after the initial import.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> that
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> didn't look
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> very promising.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> it's great to hear
that you plan to continue.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> however, since we
haven't seen a lot of activity, we
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> should
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> re-visit
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> the
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> option to move the
components to tomahawk
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> (btw. tomahawk-sandbox).
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> regards,
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> gerhard
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> http://www.irian.at
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Your JSF powerhouse
-
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> JSF Consulting, Development
and
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Courses in English
and German
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Professional Support
for Apache MyFaces
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> 2011/10/21 Ali Ok
<aliok@aliok.com.tr>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> Hi,
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> Thank you Leonardo
for volunteering in the release.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> Yes, it would
be good discussing the future.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> I am still working
on the project. Leonardo and I am the
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> only
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> ones
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> at the
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> moment.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> I am trying to
work on the project 1 night a week, so the
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> progress
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> is
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> slow. I think
it will be like this for a while.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> We have a few
issues to fix / features to implement
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> already
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> in the
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> issue
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> tracker, and I
am going to add more. There isn't enough
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> feedback,
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> since I
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> guess Html5 stuff
is still not supported by every browser
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> and
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> not
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> everyone
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> can use them.
So the user profile is more like
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> enthusiasts
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> who are
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> experimenting
with Html5.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> What we could
do is providing fallback for old browsers
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> out
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> of the
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> box,
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> but it is really
hard to implement.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> About the future: there
is a lot to do in this area and I
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> am
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> willing to
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> work, but I can
say I can spare limited time.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> That's the
intention of this mail. I think we should do
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> an
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> alpha
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> release. I
don't see reasons to block a release.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> I agree.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> I am pretty sure
a release is good for the project, more
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> people
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> will hear
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> about it; and
hopefully we can get some feedback.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> Cheers,
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> Ali
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Oct 21,
2011 at 8:50 PM, Werner Punz
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> <werner.punz@gmail.com>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> +1
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Am 10/21/11
7:56 PM, schrieb Leonardo Uribe:
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> Hi
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> That's
the intention of this mail. I think we should do
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> an
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> alpha
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> release.
I don't see reasons to block a release.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> regards,
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> Leonardo
Uribe
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> 2011/10/21
Gerhard
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> Petracek<gerhard.petracek@gmail.com>:
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> before
we release it, we should (imo) discuss the
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> future
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> of
this
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> module.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> regards,
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> gerhard
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.irian.at
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Your
JSF powerhouse -
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> JSF
Consulting, Development and
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Courses
in English and German
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Professional
Support for Apache MyFaces
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> 2011/10/21
Leonardo Uribe<lu4242@gmail.com>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
Hi
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
It could be good to do an alpha release of myfaces
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
html5
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
next
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
week.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
The site for this project is:
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
http://myfaces.apache.org/html5/
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
If no objections I'll do the necessary steps.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
regards,
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
Leonardo Uribe
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> --
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> My Blog: http://blog.aliok.com.tr
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/aliok_tr
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>--
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>Grant Smith - V.P. Information
Technology
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>Marathon Computer Systems, LLC.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> --
>>>> >>> My Blog: http://blog.aliok.com.tr
>>>> >>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/aliok_tr
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --
>>>> >> My Blog: http://blog.aliok.com.tr
>>>> >> Twitter: http://twitter.com/aliok_tr
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > Matthias Wessendorf
>>>> >
>>>> > blog: http://matthiaswessendorf.wordpress.com/
>>>> > sessions: http://www.slideshare.net/mwessendorf
>>>> > twitter: http://twitter.com/mwessendorf
>>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matthias Wessendorf
>>
>> blog: http://matthiaswessendorf.wordpress.com/
>> sessions: http://www.slideshare.net/mwessendorf
>> twitter: http://twitter.com/mwessendorf
>>
>

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