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From Matthias Wessendorf <mat...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [html5] alpha release for myfaces html5
Date Wed, 02 Nov 2011 21:18:32 GMT
On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 9:13 PM, Gerhard Petracek
<gerhard.petracek@gmail.com> wrote:
> @matthias:
> apache labs are only for prototyping and the next step is e.g. the
> incubator for building a community (see [1]).

perfect for new GSoC projects, IMO

However, generally Apache Labs is (unfortunately) pretty limited
(not sure I why would actually do stuff there (instead of at github etc))

-M

>
> regards,
> gerhard
>
> [1] http://labs.apache.org/bylaws.html
>
> http://www.irian.at
>
> Your JSF powerhouse -
> JSF Consulting, Development and
> Courses in English and German
>
> Professional Support for Apache MyFaces
>
>
>
> 2011/11/2 Matthias Wessendorf <matzew@apache.org>:
>> that's stupid :-)
>>
>> Personal releases are IMO possible (e.g. deployment to p.a.o/~asf-id)
>>
>> -M
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 6:35 PM, Ali Ok <aliok@aliok.com.tr> wrote:
>>> One important point is labs projects are not allowed to make releases.
>>>
>>> Sent from Android
>>>
>>> On Nov 2, 2011 1:22 PM, "Gerhard Petracek" <gerhard.petracek@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> see [1] - esp.:
>>>>
>>>> >Apache Labs are the place where ASF committers can work on innovative,
>>>> > blue-sky and off-the-wall ideas, without having to worry about fitting
in an
>>>> > existing project bylaw or building a community around it...
>>>>
>>>> we already know that it works and it's just about a "community check"
>>>> -> imo labs doesn't fit and the alternative would be the incubator
>>>> itself.
>>>>
>>>> regards,
>>>> gerhard
>>>>
>>>> [1] http://labs.apache.org/bylaws.html
>>>>
>>>> http://www.irian.at
>>>>
>>>> Your JSF powerhouse -
>>>> JSF Consulting, Development and
>>>> Courses in English and German
>>>>
>>>> Professional Support for Apache MyFaces
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2011/11/2 Matthias Wessendorf <matzew@apache.org>:
>>>> > I don't get why not just having a simple alpha release ?
>>>> > Does not hurt... Or... move the entire thing to Apache Labs... for
>>>> > future experiments ?!
>>>> >
>>>> > -M
>>>> >
>>>> > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 12:03 AM, Ali Ok <aliok@aliok.com.tr> wrote:
>>>> >> Hi,
>>>> >> So do you think  myfaces/incubator/html5 is a good place?
>>>> >> Greetings,
>>>> >> Ali
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 1:37 PM, Ali Ok <aliok@aliok.com.tr>
wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Hi,
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> In my opinion as long this lib is html5 only it should not
be part of
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> the tomahawk project
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I agree, no relation with Tomahawk.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> a different idea would be a small myfaces-incubator for
new
>>>> >>>> project-ideas
>>>> >>>> (esp. for gsoc projects).
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Makes more sense to me than Tomahawk.
>>>> >>> I think (almost) everyone is in favor of moving the project
to
>>>> >>> somewhere
>>>> >>> else, I am also ok with it.
>>>> >>> Important thing for the project is having the ability for releases
and
>>>> >>> the
>>>> >>> jars are deployed to maven repo.
>>>> >>> Cheers,
>>>> >>> Ali
>>>> >>> On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 11:05 AM, Mark Struberg <struberg@yahoo.de>
>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> including our very own little 'attic' :)
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Actually the big difference between the incubator and a
mf subproject
>>>> >>>> would be the IP clearance. We really need to do this upfront
before
>>>> >>>> importing.
>>>> >>>> But actually I like this much more than having projects
developed
>>>> >>>> outside
>>>> >>>> and only later brought into our SVN - because this causes
lots of
>>>> >>>> paperwork
>>>> >>>> (gas grants and a IP clearance review is mandatory).
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Thus a +1
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> LieGrue,
>>>> >>>> strub
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >________________________________
>>>> >>>> >From: Gerhard Petracek <gerhard.petracek@gmail.com>
>>>> >>>> >To: MyFaces Development <dev@myfaces.apache.org>
>>>> >>>> >Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 10:58 AM
>>>> >>>> >Subject: Re: [html5] alpha release for myfaces html5
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >a different idea would be a small myfaces-incubator
for new
>>>> >>>> > project-ideas (esp. for gsoc projects).
>>>> >>>> >we can release parts easily and drop them if we see
that something
>>>> >>>> > doesn't work for our community. if an idea works for
the community,
>>>> >>>> > we can
>>>> >>>> > discuss the correct place for it.
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >we might see new gsoc projects (related to myfaces)
every year. imo
>>>> >>>> > it's
>>>> >>>> > the wrong approach to just add them as new sub-project
and we don't
>>>> >>>> > have the
>>>> >>>> > resources/community to maintain them.
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >regards,
>>>> >>>> >gerhard
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >http://www.irian.at
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >Your JSF powerhouse -
>>>> >>>> >JSF Consulting, Development and
>>>> >>>> >Courses in English and German
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >Professional Support for Apache MyFaces
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >2011/10/22 Bernd Bohmann <bernd.bohmann@atanion.com>
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >Ha, I don't think we should wait for the jsf-eg.
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>Hey guys they are asking for a alpha release.
>>>> >>>> >>In my opinion as long this lib is html5 only it
should not be part
>>>> >>>> >> of
>>>> >>>> >>the tomahawk project.
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>I don't see any problems in releasing an alpha release.
But before
>>>> >>>> >> a
>>>> >>>> >>beta we should decide own extension or tomahawk.
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>Regards
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>Bernd
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 9:31 AM, Gerhard Petracek
>>>> >>>> >><gerhard.petracek@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>> >>> it's planned that jsf2.2 will get some sort
of html5 support.
>>>> >>>> >>> imo we should work together with the jsf-eg
to ensure that we
>>>> >>>> >>> won't
>>>> >>>> >>> promote
>>>> >>>> >>> incompatible components.
>>>> >>>> >>> regards,
>>>> >>>> >>> gerhard
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.irian.at
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>> Your JSF powerhouse -
>>>> >>>> >>> JSF Consulting, Development and
>>>> >>>> >>> Courses in English and German
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>> Professional Support for Apache MyFaces
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>> 2011/10/22 Mark Struberg <struberg@yahoo.de>
>>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> +1 for moving it to tomahawk.
>>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> One big open question for me is our html5
strategy at all.
>>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> Will the html5 components provide legacy
html support themselfs?
>>>> >>>> >>>> Thus a calendar component will use jQuery
(or whatever) calendar
>>>> >>>> >>>> when a
>>>> >>>> >>>> non-html5 browser is detected,
>>>> >>>> >>>> or is this in the responsibility of the
developer?
>>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> if (html5){
>>>> >>>> >>>> aaaa
>>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> } else{
>>>> >>>> >>>>  bbbb //fallback
>>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> }
>>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> ?
>>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> Afaik our current html5 components 'only'
support pure html5
>>>> >>>> >>>> rendering,
>>>> >>>> >>>> isn't?
>>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> LieGrue,
>>>> >>>> >>>> strub
>>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >________________________________
>>>> >>>> >>>> >From: Gerhard Petracek <gerhard.petracek@gmail.com>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >To: MyFaces Development <dev@myfaces.apache.org>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 10:22
PM
>>>> >>>> >>>> >Subject: Re: [html5] alpha release
for myfaces html5
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >@grant: +1
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >regards,
>>>> >>>> >>>> >gerhard
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >http://www.irian.at
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >Your JSF powerhouse -
>>>> >>>> >>>> >JSF Consulting, Development and
>>>> >>>> >>>> >Courses in English and German
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >Professional Support for Apache MyFaces
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >2011/10/21 Grant Smith <work.grant@gmail.com>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >I must agree with Gerhard. The whole
point of the sandbox is
>>>> >>>> >>>> > for
>>>> >>>> >>>> > this
>>>> >>>> >>>> > very purpose. However, perhaps we
should look at the sandbox
>>>> >>>> >>>> > more
>>>> >>>> >>>> > often and
>>>> >>>> >>>> > vote on components that are ready
to "graduate".
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 1:12 PM,
Gerhard Petracek
>>>> >>>> >>>> >> <gerhard.petracek@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>hi leo,
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>imo such an argument doesn't justify
an own sub-project. i
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >don't< say
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -1. my point is that we should
discuss it (esp. because the
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> situation
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> changed).
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>regards,
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>gerhard
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>http://www.irian.at
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Your JSF powerhouse -
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>JSF Consulting, Development
and
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Courses in English and German
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Professional Support for Apache
MyFaces
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>2011/10/21 Leonardo Uribe <lu4242@gmail.com>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Hi
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>The problem with move to
tomahawk sandbox is those artifact
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> can't
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>never be released. Do an
alpha release give us the chance to
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> know if
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>the bits are good enough,
get more feedback, and later
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> decide
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> what to
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>do. The truth is some people
only test some artifacts
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "after" a
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>release. Do it as an alpha
release means "... software that
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> has
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> just
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>been compiled and ready
for its initial test inhouse. ...".
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> think
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>that is enough clear.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>regards,
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Leonardo Uribe
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>2011/10/21 Gerhard Petracek
<gerhard.petracek@gmail.com>:
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> hi ali,
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> most commits happened
"directly" after the initial import.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> that
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> didn't look
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> very promising.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> it's great to hear
that you plan to continue.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> however, since we
haven't seen a lot of activity, we
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> should
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> re-visit
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> the
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> option to move the
components to tomahawk
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> (btw. tomahawk-sandbox).
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> regards,
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> gerhard
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> http://www.irian.at
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Your JSF powerhouse
-
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> JSF Consulting, Development
and
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Courses in English
and German
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Professional Support
for Apache MyFaces
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> 2011/10/21 Ali Ok
<aliok@aliok.com.tr>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> Hi,
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> Thank you Leonardo
for volunteering in the release.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> Yes, it would
be good discussing the future.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> I am still working
on the project. Leonardo and I am the
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> only
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> ones
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> at the
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> moment.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> I am trying to
work on the project 1 night a week, so the
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> progress
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> is
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> slow. I think
it will be like this for a while.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> We have a few
issues to fix / features to implement
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> already
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> in the
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> issue
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> tracker, and I
am going to add more. There isn't enough
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> feedback,
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> since I
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> guess Html5 stuff
is still not supported by every browser
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> and
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> not
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> everyone
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> can use them.
So the user profile is more like
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> enthusiasts
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> who are
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> experimenting
with Html5.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> What we could
do is providing fallback for old browsers
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> out
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> of the
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> box,
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> but it is really
hard to implement.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> About the future: there
is a lot to do in this area and I
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> am
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> willing to
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> work, but I can
say I can spare limited time.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> That's the
intention of this mail. I think we should do
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> an
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> alpha
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> release. I
don't see reasons to block a release.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> I agree.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> I am pretty sure
a release is good for the project, more
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> people
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> will hear
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> about it; and
hopefully we can get some feedback.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> Cheers,
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> Ali
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Oct 21,
2011 at 8:50 PM, Werner Punz
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> <werner.punz@gmail.com>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> +1
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Am 10/21/11
7:56 PM, schrieb Leonardo Uribe:
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> Hi
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> That's
the intention of this mail. I think we should do
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> an
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> alpha
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> release.
I don't see reasons to block a release.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> regards,
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> Leonardo
Uribe
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> 2011/10/21
Gerhard
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> Petracek<gerhard.petracek@gmail.com>:
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> before
we release it, we should (imo) discuss the
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> future
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> of
this
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> module.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> regards,
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> gerhard
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.irian.at
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Your
JSF powerhouse -
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> JSF
Consulting, Development and
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Courses
in English and German
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Professional
Support for Apache MyFaces
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> 2011/10/21
Leonardo Uribe<lu4242@gmail.com>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
Hi
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
It could be good to do an alpha release of myfaces
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
html5
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
next
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
week.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
The site for this project is:
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
http://myfaces.apache.org/html5/
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
If no objections I'll do the necessary steps.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
regards,
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>
Leonardo Uribe
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> --
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> My Blog: http://blog.aliok.com.tr
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/aliok_tr
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>--
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>Grant Smith - V.P. Information
Technology
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>Marathon Computer Systems, LLC.
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> --
>>>> >>> My Blog: http://blog.aliok.com.tr
>>>> >>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/aliok_tr
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --
>>>> >> My Blog: http://blog.aliok.com.tr
>>>> >> Twitter: http://twitter.com/aliok_tr
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > Matthias Wessendorf
>>>> >
>>>> > blog: http://matthiaswessendorf.wordpress.com/
>>>> > sessions: http://www.slideshare.net/mwessendorf
>>>> > twitter: http://twitter.com/mwessendorf
>>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matthias Wessendorf
>>
>> blog: http://matthiaswessendorf.wordpress.com/
>> sessions: http://www.slideshare.net/mwessendorf
>> twitter: http://twitter.com/mwessendorf
>>
>



-- 
Matthias Wessendorf

blog: http://matthiaswessendorf.wordpress.com/
sessions: http://www.slideshare.net/mwessendorf
twitter: http://twitter.com/mwessendorf

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