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From Bob Paulin <...@bobpaulin.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] When to add Apache Headers to Third Party Code [WAS] Re: [MENTORS] PPMC case-by-case decision for major modifications of third-party work guidance
Date Mon, 15 Jun 2020 15:37:32 GMT
Hi,

I should be more clear.  The 2 options in the case below is

1) Numpy License Headers Only

2) Apache Header with Numpy License Header

Re-reading my original reply does sound like I'm saying the Numpy
license should be removed in the case for the Apache License Headers
from the file.  This was not my intent.  John states it more clearly in
his reply that removal of the Numpy License requires additional steps.


- Bob

On 6/15/2020 3:05 AM, Chen, Ciyong wrote:
> Hi Bob, Leonard,
>
> Thanks for the elaboration/guideline on the dual license issue.
> May I have the conclusion as below based on Bob’s direction/suggestion:
>
>
>   *   If there’s no any different opinion or objection,  keep either origin Numpy license
or ASF license but not dual, which depends on how MXNet’s source file evolves when the origin
Numpy files changes? And the PPMC has all the authority to change the file like removing the
additional license if needed.
>
> Please correct me if I mis-understand anything, and help to determine the best appropriate
way to handle such case. Thanks!
>
> Best Regards,
> -Ciyong
>
> From: Bob Paulin <bob@bobpaulin.com>
> Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2020 2:20 AM
> To: lausen@apache.org; dev@mxnet.apache.org; general@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: [DISCUSS] When to add Apache Headers to Third Party Code [WAS] Re: [MENTORS]
PPMC case-by-case decision for major modifications of third-party work guidance
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I agree there does not appear to be consensus on when it's appropriate to add Apache
License Headers to Third Party code across projects.  Here is Justin's email that request
the Apache Headers removed [1]
>
> <snip>
>
> - file copyright  NumPy Developers [6] this file look to incorrectly have an ASF header
on it
>
> ....
>
> 6. ./src/operator/numpy/np_einsum_path_op-inl.h
>
> </snip>
>
> We want to make the choice that will be most sustainable for the project and most correct
for the situation.
>
> Based on the emails I linked in the prior email it does seem like the cases where dual
headers are appropriate is when there are Major Modifications.  In the case of
>
> np_einsum_path_op-inl.h
>
> The file is derived from the implementation in Numpy [2].  If the implementation in Numpy
changes will this file change?  If so then the community will be tasked with continuing to
re-port the changes over that is always based on Numpy so it may be more appropriate to just
keep the Numpy license.
>
> Will MXNet likely evolve this file in a way that it's no longer resembles the Numpy implementation
(Major Modification)?  If so it may be better to keep the Apache Header as going forward the
file will represent the work of the MXNet community not that of Numpy.
>
> Hopefully the above helps clarify my perspective on how to determine case by case.  I
don't see the dual license state as the simpler case in all situations.  I don't believe you
would have to get the original committer to relicense the file to you in order to remove the
additional license.  I believe the PPMC has all the authority it needs to change the file.
 I'd be interested to hear if this is a position that the rest of the Mentors/Incubator agree
with.  I know Hen has been involved in some of the conversations in support of dual licenses.
 Has this ever required escalation to an actual Lawyer in Legal?  Or have these determinations
been low enough risk that we are comfortable with our PMC making best effort decisions based
on the ASF guidelines?
>
>
>
> - Bob
>
>
>
> [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/rb83ff64bdac464df2f0cf2fe8fb4c6b9d3b8fa62b645763dc606045f%40%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
>
> [2] https://github.com/numpy/numpy/blob/master/numpy/core/einsumfunc.py
> On 6/12/2020 7:20 PM, Leonard Lausen wrote:
>
> Thank you Bob for the elaboration. PPMC would like to minimize complexity,
>
> that's why we ask for your recommendation.
>
>
>
> If it's easiest to just keep the original license header, we can do that. Do we
>
> need the contributor to re-license their contribution, or is the contribution
>
> already available under both licenses as both license headers were included by
>
> the contributor and the ASF header can simply be deleted?
>
>
>
> Reading through the threads you referenced, there does not seem to be a strong
>
> consensus in the ASF about how to handle this situation. For example, quoting
>
> Roman Shaposhnik [2] in support of just putting 2 License Headers for
>
> simplicity:
>
>
>
> Hm. This is tricky, now that I re-read the language of the ASF license
>
> header I'm not sure anymore. I *think* the language there should allow
>
> you to slap said header on a compatible license code.
>
>
>
> Besides, the alternative is much messier: every time somebody touches
>
> that file he/she needs to decide whether it is time for an ASF header
>
> or not.
>
>
>
> I *think* (but I'd love for old-timers to chime in and correct me) that #3-5
>
> were written from though-shall-not-fork-communities perspective.
>
> Can we follow this approach (keep 2 License headers) for simplicity (assuming
>
> removal of ASF header will require extra steps)?
>
>
>
> With respect to einsumfunc.py [5] vs np_einsum_op.cc [6] if this is in
>
> fact a port where the behavior was copied/derived directly from numpy I
>
> could see that as supporting Justin's case that the Apache header should
>
> be removed.  However that is just my opinion.
>
> Which email of Justin are you referring to?
>
>
>
> Best regards
>
> Leonard
>
>
>
>
>
> [1]: http://www.apache.org/legal/src-headers.html#purpose
>
> [2]:
>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/ef46b1d0a3dd865d27a33c290430d892d3373d4bc5e27b5f06c7bcda%401451951295%40%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 21:39 -0500, Bob Paulin wrote:
>
> First general disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.
>
>
>
> Second Disclaimer with an engineer hat on we want to avoid copying third
>
> party code into the project since it increases the amount of maintenance
>
> in a sense from a code standpoint and from a licensing standpoint.  If
>
> at all possible it is preferable to either link or try to find a way to
>
> integrate your tweaks back into the other projects before taking on the
>
> burden of housing the code in MXNet.  I do hope these options were
>
> considered or are being looked at for refactoring in the project since
>
> it will help the long term viability of the project.
>
>
>
> Now to your question.  Similar situations have been discussed both on
>
> legal [1] and on incubator [2][3].  It may be useful to review some of
>
> these threads to understand how other projects made this determination.
>
> There are instances where other members have stated it is appropriate
>
> and the dual headers have been used [4].  It seems in some of these
>
> cases the PMC has reached out to the other projects to ask for
>
> permission to apply the Apache license.
>
>
>
> With respect to einsumfunc.py [5] vs np_einsum_op.cc [6] if this is in
>
> fact a port where the behavior was copied/derived directly from numpy I
>
> could see that as supporting Justin's case that the Apache header should
>
> be removed.  However that is just my opinion.  If the PMC feels strongly
>
> it would make sense to escalate to legal-discuss.   These are case by
>
> case decisions and the more third party code that gets copied in the
>
> more drag there will be on the community to deal with these issues.  I
>
> would also encourage discussion of each case to remain on list so that
>
> the incubator PMC can see how the PPMC is making these determinations.
>
>
>
> - Bob
>
>
>
> [1]
>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/0fc4c0e95ee0c489553373e378125a0d163bc511da2555caa68bfa87%401455903168%40%3Clegal-discuss.apache.org%3E
>
>
>
> [2]
>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/d00f72c4aa0b56927dac87b116e2e92fa32b7dcf447016726683cc4f@1455210877@%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
>
>
>
> [3]
>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/e743b1b1cfda2c4775c3fe509f3adc8f69d64fd2b6eb253ade311fe7%401451947855%40%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
>
>
>
> [4] https://github.com/apache/trafodion/blob/master/core/sql/parser/ulexer.h
>
>
>
> [5] https://github.com/numpy/numpy/blob/master/numpy/core/einsumfunc.py
>
>
>
> [6]
>
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/blob/master/src/operator/numpy/np_einsum_op.cc
>
>
>
>
>
> On 6/10/2020 5:29 PM, Leonard Lausen wrote:
>
> Hi Bob,
>
>
>
> yes, your understanding is correct. To further give an example I'd like to
>
> quote
>
> Haozheng who added two of the files in question:
>
>
>
> The two files originate from >
>
> https://github.com/numpy/numpy/blob/master/numpy/core/einsumfunc.py .
>
> I translated them from python to cpp. The original files are subject to
>
> the
>
> the following license:
>
> https://github.com/numpy/numpy/blob/master/LICENSE.txt
>
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/17329#issuecomment-640043814
>
>
>
> Thank you
>
> Leonard
>
>
>
> On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 07:42 -0500, Bob Paulin wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Let me restate to make sure I understand what's being asked.
>
>
>
> 1) There is third party code in the project that has Major Modifications
>
> to
>
> the original third party source.
>
>
>
> 2) The original third party code does not currently have two license
>
> headers
>
>
>
> (ex Third Party Code has MIT license only.  Apache License header was
>
> added
>
> when it was checked into MXNet repo with modifications)
>
>
>
> 3) You are asking if the files can remain in the MXNet repository with
>
> both
>
> license headers.
>
>
>
> - Bob
>
>
>
> On 6/9/2020 5:07 PM, Leonard Lausen wrote:
>
> Hi Mentors,
>
>
>
> https://www.apache.org/legal/src-headers.html#3party states the 5 rules
>
> for
>
> handling third-party code included in the project [1]. In particular
>
> PPMC
>
> shall
>
> handle major modifications on a case-by-case basis.
>
>
>
> But the other rules state
>
>
>
> 1. Do not modify or remove any copyright notices or licenses within
>
> third-
>
> party works.
>
>
>
> and
>
>
>
> 2. Do not add the standard Apache License header to the top of third-
>
> party
>
> source files.
>
>
>
> The major modifications in question [2] are currently licensed under
>
> Apache
>
> License but the files originate from a third-party and there are thus
>
> two
>
> license headers in the files. This is in conflict with rule 2.
>
>
>
> Could you clarify if rule 2 is not a rule but only a guideline that can
>
> be
>
> overruled in PPMC's case-by-case decision? What's your recommendation?
>
> Ie.
>
> can
>
> we keep the 2 headers in place?
>
>
>
> Best regards
>
> Leonard
>
>
>
>
>
> [1]:
>
>
>
> 0. The term "third-party work" refers to a work not submitted directly
>
> to
>
> the
>
> ASF by the copyright owner or owner's agent. This includes parts of a
>
> work
>
> submitted directly to the ASF for which the submitter is not the
>
> copyright
>
> owner or owner's agent.
>
> 1. Do not modify or remove any copyright notices or licenses within
>
> third-
>
> party works.
>
> 2. Do ensure that every third-party work includes its associated
>
> license,
>
> even
>
> if that requires adding a copy of the license from the third-party
>
> download
>
> site into the distribution.
>
> 3. Do not add the standard Apache License header to the top of third-
>
> party
>
> source files.
>
> 4. Minor modifications/additions to third-party source files should
>
> typically
>
> be licensed under the same terms as the rest of the rest of the third-
>
> party
>
> source for convenience.
>
> 5. Major modifications/additions to third-party should be dealt with
>
> on a
>
> case-by-case basis by the PMC.
>
> [2]:
>
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/17329#issuecomment-641311199
>
>

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