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From Yuan Tang <terrytangy...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [Discuss] MXNet Python < 3.6 Support Deprecation
Date Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:07:48 GMT
+1 to target 3.6+

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 11:01 AM Leonard Lausen <leonard@lausen.nl> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Pedro stated "Seems 3.6 is a reasonable choice." and there have been a
> few +1 after Chaitanya's reply to Pedro. I would like to check if these
> only refer to Chaitanya's mail about a dedicated "improvement" effort or
> about dropping 3.5.
>
> Thus two questions:
>
> 1) Are there any concerns about dropping Python 3.5? Now is your chance to
> speak up if you think so.
>
> 2) Should new MXNet 1.x (experimental?) functionality (for example numpy
> compatible interface) only target the Python versions to be supported in
> MXNet 2? The current plan is to make many MXNet 2 features available as
> "opt-in" in MXNet 1.x. Supporting older Python versions on MXNet 1 for
> these features may impact design and functionality and create
> unnecessary technical debt.
>
>
> Personally I argue for targeting only 3.6+ as
> - 3.5 will go EOL in 388 days and a potential MXNet 2 release together
>   with our Semantic Versioning backwards compatibility guarantees would
>   keep us "stuck" on 3.5 for the years to come. JetBrains 2018 survey
>   showed only 11% of users used 3.5.
> - 3.6 introduced a number of fundamental and relevant changes that we
>   may want to build on and for which we can expect user adoption to
>   increase over the years (thus MXNet should try to be compatible).
>   - "PEP 526: Syntax for variable annotations" which we may even be able
>     to use for shape typing along the lines of numpy
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vpMse4c6DrWH5rq2tQSx3qwP_m_0lyn-Ij4WHqQqRHY/
>   - asyncio module is stable with 3.6 and associated 3.7 language
>     features such as contextvars only have backports for 3.6. Some parts
>     of Gluon currently rely on thread-local state, which is not correct
>     if users call MXNet from within asyncio code.
>   Locking ourselves to 3.5 means we can't support these and may provide
>   a bad user-experience in coming years.
> - Part of the Ecosystem (GluonNLP) only support 3.6+ anyways.
>
> I would also like to cite James MacGlashan to point out how targeting
> 3.6+ could help usability and attract more users:
>
>   Pipe dream: I'd love it if Mxnet not only dropped Python 2 support for
>   a more consistent design, but also went all in on Python 3.6 for type
>   hint integration. There are enough different types involved in MXNet
>   that types can help clarify usage, particularly for disambiguating
>   symbol vs ndarray vs list vs tuple; tuple of ints rather than tuple of
>   floats; etc.
>
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/8703#issuecomment-520881450
>
> Thus we can see targeting 3.6+ as a great opportunity for the MXNet
> project!
>
> Best regards
> Leonard
>
> "Srivastava, Rohit Kumar" <srivastava.141@buckeyemail.osu.edu> writes:
> > +1
> >
> > On 7/19/19, 12:59 PM, "Zhu Zhaoqi" <zhaoqizhu96@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >     +1
> >
> >     Lin Yuan <apeforest@gmail.com> 于2019年7月19日周五 上午12:06写道:
> >
> >     > +1
> >     >
> >     > On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 12:03 AM Chaitanya Bapat <
> chai.bapat@gmail.com>
> >     > wrote:
> >     >
> >     > > +1 definitely.
> >     > >
> >     > > Going forward,
> >     > > MXNet repo as it stands has ~95,000+ lines of Python code [1]
> >     > > OpenEdx has a million (10x) LOC and this mammoth effort of
> porting from
> >     > > Python 2 to 3 is treated as a separate project named Incremental
> >     > > Improvement. [2]
> >     > > We can take inspiration from them and have a similar effort by
> calling
> >     > > action from the community. Issues can be maintained in a
> separate JIRA
> >     > > board to track high priority tasks.
> >     > >
> >     > > Also, I can see gluon-nlp adding themselves to the Python3
> statement.
> >     > Once
> >     > > the vote passes, one of us could submit a PR to add MXNet as
> well.
> >     > >
> >     > > [1] https://codeclimate.com/
> >     > > [2]
> >     > >
> >     >
> https://open.edx.org/blog/python-2-is-ending-we-need-to-move-to-python-3/
> >     > >
> >     > >
> >     > > On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 at 21:39, Kshitij Kalambarkar <
> >     > > kshitijkalambarkar@gmail.com> wrote:
> >     > >
> >     > > > +1
> >     > > >
> >     > > > On Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 04:28 Pedro Larroy <
> pedro.larroy.lists@gmail.com
> >     > >
> >     > > > wrote:
> >     > > >
> >     > > > > Seems 3.6 is a reasonable choice.
> >     > > > >
> >     > > > > On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 2:15 PM Marco de Abreu <
> >     > > marco.g.abreu@gmail.com>
> >     > > > > wrote:
> >     > > > > >
> >     > > > > > Looking at EOL is certainly a good idea! I think once
we
> get closer
> >     > > to
> >     > > > > > deprecation, we can check adoption statistics to make
a
> >     > well-informed
> >     > > > > > decision that gives us the most advantages without
> dropping the
> >     > ball
> >     > > > on a
> >     > > > > > majority of users (or supporting a branch that is going
> EOL soon).
> >     > A
> >     > > > > survey
> >     > > > > > from 2018 [1] determined the following distribution:
> >     > > > > > 3.5: 11%
> >     > > > > > 3.6: 54%
> >     > > > > > 3.7: 30%
> >     > > > > >
> >     > > > > > Deprecation for 3.5 is scheduled for 2020-09-13 [2].
> Deprecation
> >     > for
> >     > > > 3.6
> >     > > > > is
> >     > > > > > scheduled for 2021-12-23 [2].Deprecation for 3.7 is
> scheduled
> >     > > > > > for 2023-06-27 [2].
> >     > > > > >
> >     > > > > > Following the trend, I'd say that it would be a decision
> between
> >     > > Python
> >     > > > > 3.6
> >     > > > > > and 3.7. Later on, I'd propose to check recent surveys
and
> also
> >     > have
> >     > > a
> >     > > > > > separate thread to determine if there's anything we're
> missing
> >     > (e.g.
> >     > > a
> >     > > > > big
> >     > > > > > company being unable to use Python 3.7). What do you
think?
> >     > > > > >
> >     > > > > > Best regards,
> >     > > > > > Marco
> >     > > > > >
> >     > > > > > [1]:
> >     > >
> https://www.jetbrains.com/research/python-developers-survey-2018/
> >     > > > > > [2]:
> https://devguide.python.org/#status-of-python-branches
> >     > > > > >
> >     > > > > > On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 9:42 PM Yuan Tang <
> terrytangyuan@gmail.com
> >     > >
> >     > > > > wrote:
> >     > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > I would suggest supporting Python 3.5+ since the
earlier
> versions
> >     > > > have
> >     > > > > > > reached end-of-life status:
> >     > > > > > >
> https://devguide.python.org/devcycle/#end-of-life-branches
> >     > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 3:36 PM Pedro Larroy <
> >     > > > > pedro.larroy.lists@gmail.com
> >     > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > wrote:
> >     > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > +1
> >     > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > This would simplify CI, reduce costs and
more. I think
> a
> >     > followup
> >     > > > > > > > question is what would be the mininum Python3
version
> >     > supported?
> >     > > > > > > > Depending on that we might be able to use
type
> annotations for
> >     > > > > example
> >     > > > > > > > or other features.
> >     > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > Pedro.
> >     > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 12:07 PM Yuan Tang
<
> >     > > > terrytangyuan@gmail.com>
> >     > > > > > > > wrote:
> >     > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > +1
> >     > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 2:51 PM Yuxi
Hu <
> >     > darrenyxhu@gmail.com>
> >     > > > > wrote:
> >     > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > +1
> >     > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 11:31 AM
Tong He <
> >     > > hetong007@gmail.com>
> >     > > > > > > wrote:
> >     > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > > +1
> >     > > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > > Best regards,
> >     > > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > > Tong He
> >     > > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > > Jake Lee <gstu1130@gmail.com>
于2019年7月18日周四
> 上午11:29写道:
> >     > > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > +1
> >     > > > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 18, 2019
at 11:27 AM Junru Shao <
> >     > > > > > > > junrushao1994@gmail.com>
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> >     > > > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > +1
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 18,
2019 at 11:12 AM Anirudh
> Acharya <
> >     > > > > > > > > > > anirudhkrec@gmail.com>
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul
18, 2019 at 11:03 AM Marco de
> Abreu <
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > marco.g.abreu@gmail.com
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Marco
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sheng
Zha <zhasheng@apache.org> schrieb
> am Do.,
> >     > > 18.
> >     > > > > Juli
> >     > > > > > > > 2019,
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > 19:59:
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear
MXNet community,
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd
like to reopen the discussion on
> >     > deprecating
> >     > > > > python2
> >     > > > > > > > > > support.
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > This
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would
help modernize the design and
> engineering
> >     > > > > practice
> >     > > > > > > in
> >     > > > > > > > > > MXNet
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > to
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > help
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > improve
speed and quality.
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For
this purpose, I reopened the issue
> on this
> >     > > > here:
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/8703
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If
the consensus is towards the
> direction of
> >     > > > dropping
> >     > > > > > > > python2
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > support,
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > I
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > suggest
we announce our plan to drop
> python2
> >     > > > support
> >     > > > > in
> >     > > > > > > the
> >     > > > > > > > > > next
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > release,
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
actually drop the support in the
> next major
> >     > > > > version.
> >     > > > > > > > > > Thanks.
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -sz
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > > > > --
> >     > > > > > > > > > Yuxi(Darren) Hu, Ph.D.
> >     > > > > > > > > > Software Development Engineer
> >     > > > > > > > > > Amazon Web Services
> >     > > > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > > >
> >     > > > > > >
> >     > > > >
> >     > > >
> >     > >
> >     > >
> >     > > --
> >     > > *Chaitanya Prakash Bapat*
> >     > > *+1 (973) 953-6299*
> >     > >
> >     > > [image: https://www.linkedin.com//in/chaibapat25]
> >     > > <https://github.com/ChaiBapchya>[image:
> >     > https://www.facebook.com/chaibapat
> >     > > ]
> >     > > <https://www.facebook.com/chaibapchya>[image:
> >     > > https://twitter.com/ChaiBapchya] <
> https://twitter.com/ChaiBapchya
> >     > >[image:
> >     > > https://www.linkedin.com//in/chaibapat25]
> >     > > <https://www.linkedin.com//in/chaibapchya/>
> >     > >
> >     >
> >
>

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