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From Tianqi Chen <tqc...@cs.washington.edu>
Subject Re: [Discussion] PMC and Committer Courtesy: Only Propose Candidate in a Different Organization
Date Tue, 23 Oct 2018 15:15:51 GMT
Hi Pedro:
    If any of the Amazonians have enough merit to get the committership.
The PMCs outside Amazon should recognize and bring them to the
committership -- This proposal is not about discriminating against anyone.
Please do note that this community is bigger than Amazon itself -- there
are Intel engineers, Googlers, University students, startup companies
employees, Apache members, and independent contributors. Admittedly their
contributions need to get recognized, and they do not sit next door to
another PMC member.

   I do not understand why we should be afraid of this proposal. If the
merit of contributions is good enough, any PMC, including non-Amazonians
should recognize and propose them to the committership, why does it have to
be an Amazonian PMC? Why not try get someone outside Amazon to do so. Try
to have a goodwill and to give it a spin.

Tianqi

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 7:09 AM Pedro Larroy <pedro.larroy.lists@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi
>
> Tianqi, there's a saying that the road to hell is paved with good
> intentions. I think most of us here are enthusiastic about increasing
> diversity of contributions to this project and are working actively towards
> this. Having any kind of positive or negative discrimination seems to me
> like it goes against what's listed on the Apache website, under the section
> "Meritocracy". https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> Several
> Amazonians have invested time, love and resources both inside and outside
> working hours to this project. I don't think it's fair to them that their
> contributions are not taken impartially irregardless of their current
> employer, neither would be against a member of any other organization, sex,
> condition etc.
>
> -1
>
> Pedro.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 6:02 PM Tianqi Chen <tqchen@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > I want to clarify that this would not prevent Amazon contributors from
> > being nominated. Nor it would prevent collaboration between Amazon
> > employees. A good thing about Apache is that everything is recorded and
> > presented to the entire community, this includes the dev list,
> > github review/commit history, documentation, wiki.
> >
> > Specifically to Amazon contributors, there are non-Amazon PMCs can watch
> > these evidence and bring these contributors on board -- and I am very
> > certain this would be the case. If the problem that there are too few
> > non-Amazon PMCs, then it wouldn't hurt to try to get more on board, and
> > then get them in the term to nominate PMC contributors.
> >
> > One of the key criteria of graduation for an Apache Project is that it
> > should not be controlled by a single entity. I think that whether we can
> > execute this guideline is exactly a good test to check if we pass that
> bar.
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 9:19 PM Naveen Swamy <mnnaveen@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > this suggestion looks like it is putting the onus on contributors to
> > > collaborate with contributors outside their org to get nominated to be
> > > committer or a PMC of this project.
> > > Every organization has its own business goals, on the way to meet their
> > > objectives if their employees happen to be great contributors to this
> > > project, I would expect PMC members(wearing their Apache hat) to
> > recognize
> > > them and give them a greater role in the project.
> > > I would assume the responsibility of increasing the diversity is solely
> > > upon the PMC members, the PMC should look ways to evangelize the
> project,
> > > mentor new contributors, nominate and make them a part of the project's
> > > journey.
> > > I do agree that we have to increase the diversity and suggest to
> explore
> > > different ways( for example collaborate with other successful Open
> source
> > > projects to get their members excited about MXNet).
> > >
> > > Guideline or not, I cannot agree to this in principle.
> > > -1
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 8:22 PM Tianqi Chen <tqchen@cs.washington.edu>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >  Many potential committers and
> > > > > PMC won’t interact with the non-Amazonians at all (since there
are
> so
> > > > few),
> > > > > so they’d be relegated to obscurity and hopelessness by default.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > If potential contributors do not comes from Amazon, then the
> Amazonian
> > > PMC
> > > > can nominate them :)  If the potential contributors does comes from
> > > Amazon,
> > > > then it is not a bad thing to interact with bigger part of the
> > > community. I
> > > > can expect that as more non-Amazonian contributors get nonimated,
> this
> > > > would make the process more healthy.
> > > >
> > > > Like neural networks, any guideline can be played in adverserial
> > fashion
> > > > (e.g. in the case of the gray areas). I think having a goodwill to
> push
> > > the
> > > > guideline will understandably make people to work together.
> > > >
> > > > Afterall, this is an Apache project that should goes beyond a single
> > > > company
> > > >
> > > > Tianqi
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 5:06 PM Steffen Rochel <
> > > steffenrochel@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Tianqi -
> > > > > > +1 . I like the idea to grow diversity at the project and
> encourage
> > > > > > communication beyond people sitting next to each other. I also
> > > support
> > > > > the
> > > > > > way you described as guideline, not has a hard rule. I think
it
> is
> > > > > > important we focus on merit and contributions when evaluating
> > nominee
> > > > for
> > > > > > committer and PPMC.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Carin started a draft document for revised criteria for committer
> > and
> > > > > PPMC
> > > > > > membership
> > > > > > <
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MXNET/Become+an+Apache+MXNet+%28incubating%29+Committer+and+PPMC+Member+Proposal
> > > > > > >.
> > > > > > I suggest to contribute, provide feedback and suggestion
> including
> > > your
> > > > > > proposal.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Steffen
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 10:22 AM Tianqi Chen <tqchen@apache.org>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dear MXNet Community:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There has been a great discussion going on in terms of
> > > > > > > PMC/Committer Criteria.  As a community move forward, it
is
> > > important
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > make the community inclusive to everyone and encourage
folks to
> > > work
> > > > > > > together.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I want to propose the following proposal courtesy: when
a PMC
> > > > proposes
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > committer/PMC member, for courtesy of the community, she/he
> > should
> > > > only
> > > > > > > propose a person from a different organization(company).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The idea behind that is that the Apache project goes beyond
a
> > > single
> > > > > > > organization, it is important to recognize others, including
> > those
> > > > > from a
> > > > > > > different organization in the community, and get your merit
> being
> > > > > > > recognized by others.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Admittedly, this would also give more "power" to the PMC
> members
> > > from
> > > > > > > minority organizations -- which I think is a good thing.
This
> > might
> > > > > also
> > > > > > > encourage everyone to work together and talk to folks who
are
> > > beyond
> > > > > your
> > > > > > > next door
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Tianqi
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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