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From Pedro Larroy <pedro.larroy.li...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [Discussion] PMC and Committer Courtesy: Only Propose Candidate in a Different Organization
Date Wed, 24 Oct 2018 00:16:50 GMT
Hi Steffen

I don't see that text in the proposal. I personally think the bar should be
the same for everyone independent of their affiliation, as per Apache ways
of working, and per ethical principles of equality and meritocracy,
otherwise we open the door to discrimination.

This old movie with de Niro and Cuba Gooding comes to mind:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_of_Honor

Pedro.

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:15 PM Steffen Rochel <steffenrochel@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Tianqi and Pedro - I suggested the following in
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MXNET/Become+an+Apache+MXNet+%28incubating%29+Committer+and+PPMC+Member+Proposal
>  :
> In general, a nominee for PPMC will be evaluated based on the merit and
> contribution, independent of his affiliation. However, as an exception to
> improve the affiliation diversity within the PPMC, the PPMC might apply a
> higher bar for nominees affiliated with Amazon AWS.
>
> Please comment on the proposal (see thread "[DISCUSS] - Revisions to
> Committer Criteria).
>
> Steffen
>
> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 7:09 AM Pedro Larroy <pedro.larroy.lists@gmail.com
> >
> wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > Tianqi, there's a saying that the road to hell is paved with good
> > intentions. I think most of us here are enthusiastic about increasing
> > diversity of contributions to this project and are working actively
> towards
> > this. Having any kind of positive or negative discrimination seems to me
> > like it goes against what's listed on the Apache website, under the
> section
> > "Meritocracy". https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> > Several
> > Amazonians have invested time, love and resources both inside and outside
> > working hours to this project. I don't think it's fair to them that their
> > contributions are not taken impartially irregardless of their current
> > employer, neither would be against a member of any other organization,
> sex,
> > condition etc.
> >
> > -1
> >
> > Pedro.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 6:02 PM Tianqi Chen <tqchen@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > I want to clarify that this would not prevent Amazon contributors from
> > > being nominated. Nor it would prevent collaboration between Amazon
> > > employees. A good thing about Apache is that everything is recorded and
> > > presented to the entire community, this includes the dev list,
> > > github review/commit history, documentation, wiki.
> > >
> > > Specifically to Amazon contributors, there are non-Amazon PMCs can
> watch
> > > these evidence and bring these contributors on board -- and I am very
> > > certain this would be the case. If the problem that there are too few
> > > non-Amazon PMCs, then it wouldn't hurt to try to get more on board, and
> > > then get them in the term to nominate PMC contributors.
> > >
> > > One of the key criteria of graduation for an Apache Project is that it
> > > should not be controlled by a single entity. I think that whether we
> can
> > > execute this guideline is exactly a good test to check if we pass that
> > bar.
> > >
> > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 9:19 PM Naveen Swamy <mnnaveen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > this suggestion looks like it is putting the onus on contributors to
> > > > collaborate with contributors outside their org to get nominated to
> be
> > > > committer or a PMC of this project.
> > > > Every organization has its own business goals, on the way to meet
> their
> > > > objectives if their employees happen to be great contributors to this
> > > > project, I would expect PMC members(wearing their Apache hat) to
> > > recognize
> > > > them and give them a greater role in the project.
> > > > I would assume the responsibility of increasing the diversity is
> solely
> > > > upon the PMC members, the PMC should look ways to evangelize the
> > project,
> > > > mentor new contributors, nominate and make them a part of the
> project's
> > > > journey.
> > > > I do agree that we have to increase the diversity and suggest to
> > explore
> > > > different ways( for example collaborate with other successful Open
> > source
> > > > projects to get their members excited about MXNet).
> > > >
> > > > Guideline or not, I cannot agree to this in principle.
> > > > -1
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 8:22 PM Tianqi Chen <
> tqchen@cs.washington.edu>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  Many potential committers and
> > > > > > PMC won’t interact with the non-Amazonians at all (since there
> are
> > so
> > > > > few),
> > > > > > so they’d be relegated to obscurity and hopelessness by default.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > If potential contributors do not comes from Amazon, then the
> > Amazonian
> > > > PMC
> > > > > can nominate them :)  If the potential contributors does comes from
> > > > Amazon,
> > > > > then it is not a bad thing to interact with bigger part of the
> > > > community. I
> > > > > can expect that as more non-Amazonian contributors get nonimated,
> > this
> > > > > would make the process more healthy.
> > > > >
> > > > > Like neural networks, any guideline can be played in adverserial
> > > fashion
> > > > > (e.g. in the case of the gray areas). I think having a goodwill to
> > push
> > > > the
> > > > > guideline will understandably make people to work together.
> > > > >
> > > > > Afterall, this is an Apache project that should goes beyond a
> single
> > > > > company
> > > > >
> > > > > Tianqi
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 5:06 PM Steffen Rochel <
> > > > steffenrochel@gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Tianqi -
> > > > > > > +1 . I like the idea to grow diversity at the project and
> > encourage
> > > > > > > communication beyond people sitting next to each other.
I also
> > > > support
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > way you described as guideline, not has a hard rule. I
think it
> > is
> > > > > > > important we focus on merit and contributions when evaluating
> > > nominee
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > committer and PPMC.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Carin started a draft document for revised criteria for
> committer
> > > and
> > > > > > PPMC
> > > > > > > membership
> > > > > > > <
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MXNET/Become+an+Apache+MXNet+%28incubating%29+Committer+and+PPMC+Member+Proposal
> > > > > > > >.
> > > > > > > I suggest to contribute, provide feedback and suggestion
> > including
> > > > your
> > > > > > > proposal.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Steffen
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 10:22 AM Tianqi Chen <
> tqchen@apache.org>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Dear MXNet Community:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There has been a great discussion going on in terms
of
> > > > > > > > PMC/Committer Criteria.  As a community move forward,
it is
> > > > important
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > make the community inclusive to everyone and encourage
folks
> to
> > > > work
> > > > > > > > together.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I want to propose the following proposal courtesy:
when a PMC
> > > > > proposes
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > committer/PMC member, for courtesy of the community,
she/he
> > > should
> > > > > only
> > > > > > > > propose a person from a different organization(company).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The idea behind that is that the Apache project goes
beyond a
> > > > single
> > > > > > > > organization, it is important to recognize others,
including
> > > those
> > > > > > from a
> > > > > > > > different organization in the community, and get your
merit
> > being
> > > > > > > > recognized by others.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Admittedly, this would also give more "power" to the
PMC
> > members
> > > > from
> > > > > > > > minority organizations -- which I think is a good
thing. This
> > > might
> > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > encourage everyone to work together and talk to folks
who are
> > > > beyond
> > > > > > your
> > > > > > > > next door
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Tianqi
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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