From dev-return-4044-archive-asf-public=cust-asf.ponee.io@mxnet.incubator.apache.org Sun Sep 2 19:40:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: archive-asf-public@cust-asf.ponee.io Delivered-To: archive-asf-public@cust-asf.ponee.io Received: from mail.apache.org (hermes.apache.org [140.211.11.3]) by mx-eu-01.ponee.io (Postfix) with SMTP id 224F8180649 for ; Sun, 2 Sep 2018 19:40:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 52993 invoked by uid 500); 2 Sep 2018 17:40:35 -0000 Mailing-List: contact dev-help@mxnet.incubator.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: dev@mxnet.incubator.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list dev@mxnet.incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 52981 invoked by uid 99); 2 Sep 2018 17:40:34 -0000 Received: from pnap-us-west-generic-nat.apache.org (HELO spamd4-us-west.apache.org) (209.188.14.142) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Sun, 02 Sep 2018 17:40:34 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spamd4-us-west.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at spamd4-us-west.apache.org) with ESMTP id 13BFAC05E1 for ; Sun, 2 Sep 2018 17:40:34 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at spamd4-us-west.apache.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.389 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.389 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=2, KAM_NUMSUBJECT=0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=disabled Authentication-Results: spamd4-us-west.apache.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=googlemail.com Received: from mx1-lw-us.apache.org ([10.40.0.8]) by localhost (spamd4-us-west.apache.org [10.40.0.11]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SHOa_OtMnLds for ; Sun, 2 Sep 2018 17:40:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-lj1-f176.google.com (mail-lj1-f176.google.com [209.85.208.176]) by mx1-lw-us.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at mx1-lw-us.apache.org) with ESMTPS id 92B6C5F1BD for ; Sun, 2 Sep 2018 17:40:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-lj1-f176.google.com with SMTP id u83-v6so13585173lje.12 for ; Sun, 02 Sep 2018 10:40:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=wEAsws2cYnnqDMEFqOjNBgMGjWb2Cy9RcEEt0KwdCgA=; b=tw8wRuvb7sNJz65aioHmZ52sX4J1khJI75EEVPy9XQZGOvLVWt2kG92mUEdkiMDSiI oUPVGX55N7CVCK5YKCXLGO89Dik7Zq01g52wWOLT/Ojn5blCdU/sKQsDhs+4ejwknxnm WjB8XBUfcw4nCJ4e2eJIXud1TRTbXloQmzjp/iIZnM06oi1CO8j2HA1vuetkcI7AiThD /qSxuQDlX6jSicve1YHldGc3culiZ9NXRhEnINGszb/wjQb11+nTfJWixHgB0bjKHQ3h gMjgo/MG/qADVlUVrT7chgbE9PALucLlpCvM0WiCMdRLX+BCe+LafLJXM3J170oclx1/ lfmg== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51B3ncMeY8oJ8dwF/08tp7dIi6k34MCI0N1flfReBymFXbbGdHs9 a2gDiZ30V+Db1QnUoQf/zOhVBlE4nLHw4yy4uWqIrA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdZUe+QWS84b7hKMgEDUq/vr/WNkSuHfX0BZZUAyp+5603qyXdMgYJo+sAJTGk15OBg5xgTD4YEIKq5avXMx82E= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:5bd5:: with SMTP id m82-v6mr16467539lje.115.1535910027894; Sun, 02 Sep 2018 10:40:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <64462187-5C0A-4464-AFE7-BCE7DE118FF0@analog.com> In-Reply-To: <64462187-5C0A-4464-AFE7-BCE7DE118FF0@analog.com> From: Marco de Abreu Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 19:40:17 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7 To: dev@mxnet.incubator.apache.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009ea7a00574e6ebe9" --0000000000009ea7a00574e6ebe9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the data and these quite important points. I agree and hereby change my vote to -1. Barber, Christopher schrieb am So., 2. Sep. 2018, 18:56: > FWIW, my company is only beginning to transition to Windows 10 now, and m= y > past experience would lead me to believe that many enterprises stick with > old versions of Windows long past when you think they would. > > Seems to me that if you are unwilling to deprecate python 2.7, then > continuing to support Windows 7 is a no-brainer. You are more likely to g= et > users to switch to python 3 than you are to get them to install a new > operating system. > > And do you really want to drop support for platforms that your competitor= s > still support? Given MXNet's market share, I wouldn't dream of dropping a > platform until after the more popular frameworks have already done so. > > I also believe that it is possible to install more recent versions of > Visual Studio on Windows 7. > > =EF=BB=BFOn 9/2/18, 1:57 AM, "kellen sunderland" > wrote: > > Google analytics are sadly probably the best numbers we're going to > get. > Of course these numbers are likely to over-represent windows usage, a= s > I'm > sure many people are looking up documentation on a windows machine > while > ssh'd into a cloud instance or IoT device. > > What's the trend over time for these numbers Mu? Is Windows 7 usage > relatively stable over the last year? > > On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 1:58 AM Mu Li wrote: > > > According to google analytics, ~12% users who visited mxnet's > website are > > using Windows 7. It's a significant number. Even though we cannot > conclude > > that all of these users will run MXNet on Windows 7, I suggest we > still > > support win7. > > > > BTW, anyone who can access mxnet's google analytics report can > verify this > > number by following this instruction: > > > > > https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1340778/detecting-windows-7-with-goog= le-analytics > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 1:55 PM Steffen Rochel < > steffenrochel@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > I support a data driven decision. Any suggestions how we can obta= in > > insight > > > about OS usage of the MXNet user community? > > > Can we get such information from pip install statistics or should > we > > > perform a user poll on the discussion forum? > > > On the other hand the lack of data should not prevent us from > moving > > > forward and dropping support for outdated OS. > > > In any case we would have to announce dropping a platform support > at > > least > > > a release in advance. > > > Steffen > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:21 PM Sheng Zha > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Kellen, > > > > > > > > Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I don't have the > usage data, > > > so > > > > I refrained from voting. If any of the voters have such data I'= d > love > > to > > > > see it too. > > > > > > > > -sz > > > > > > > > On 2018/08/30 14:58:09, kellen sunderland < > kellen.sunderland@gmail.com > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > I haven't spoken to anyone about the decision (as I'm > currently on an > > > > > island in the med) but to me the quick +1s are likely a resul= t > of > > this > > > > > being a fairly straightforward decision. The factors that > went into > > my > > > > > thinking were (1) prioritizing growing platforms rather than > > shrinking > > > > > platforms (i.e. thinking long term rather than shirt term) an= d > (2) > > > > earning > > > > > our customers' trust. Claiming support for a platform when w= e > can't > > > > > realistically deliver it would lose us trust. I'd prefer to > over > > > deliver > > > > > and under promise when it come to windows 7 for this reason. > > > > > > > > > > Now on the flip side one thing I would see as valuable is to > try and > > > get > > > > > windows builds working with clang. This could be beneficial > in the > > > sense > > > > > that it would be easy to maintain for mxnet devs and allow us > to use > > > > modern > > > > > cpp on older windows machines without using vs 2013(which I > consider > > a > > > > > non-starter with our codebase). > > > > > > > > > > You have peaked my curiousity though Sheng. How many win7 > users does > > > > MXNet > > > > > have relative to macos/Linux? > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 8:51 AM Sheng Zha > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Yuan, > > > > > > > > > > > > No problem. This is an issue that's worth having a clear > > definition, > > > so > > > > > > there's nothing wrong about your proposal, and thanks for > bringing > > > > this up. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm more concerned about the seemingly unanimous votes on > dropping > > > > support > > > > > > on a platform without seeing the supporting evidence that > it's the > > > > right > > > > > > thing. It is as if everyone who participated in the vote ar= e > > already > > > > on the > > > > > > same page, and somehow I'm the only one that's not. But the > only > > > > argument I > > > > > > hear so far is that it's technically not straightforward to > > continue > > > > the > > > > > > support, which, coming from Amazon folks, certainly doesn't > sound > > > > > > customer-obsessed. > > > > > > > > > > > > -sz > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:37 PM Lin Yuan < > apeforest@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Sheng, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for raising this concern. The problem now is that = we > > cannot > > > > even > > > > > > > build MXNet on Windows 7 because the build process > requires MS VS > > > > 2015 w/ > > > > > > > update 3 which is incompatible on Windows 7. This leaves > many > > > > Windows 7 > > > > > > > related open issues on github without any timely response= . > In my > > > > opinion, > > > > > > > having no response to users' request is probably even > worse than > > > > letting > > > > > > > them know the limitation of OS support. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To minimize the impact to current Windows 7 users, we can > provide > > > > PyPi > > > > > > > package for Windows 7 in this release but defer the bug > fix and > > > > feature > > > > > > > enhancement to later Windows OS version. Based on users' > > feedbacks, > > > > we > > > > > > can > > > > > > > then officially discontinue the Windows 7 support in the > next > > MXNet > > > > > > > release. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will appreciate your comments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:37 PM Sheng Zha < > szha.pvg@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are any of the votes based on any measure of user > impact, if we > > > > indeed > > > > > > > > decide not to fix the current problems? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -sz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:29 PM Hagay Lupesko < > > lupesko@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 (non-binding) > > > > > > > > > Thanks for raising this Lin! > > > > > > > > > Are you suggesting to do it as part of MXNet 1.3? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:14 AM Srivastava, Rohit > Kumar < > > > > > > > > > srivastava.141@buckeyemail.osu.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 8/29/18, 8:39 AM, "sandeep krishnamurthy" < > > > > > > > > > sandeep.krishna98@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 Thanks for bringing this up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 6:38 AM Marco de Abreu > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:08 PM kellen > sunderland < > > > > > > > > > > > kellen.sunderland@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 (non-binding) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 1:18 AM Anirudh > Acharya < > > > > > > > > > > anirudhkrec@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 for discontinuing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 4:11 PM Naveen > Swamy < > > > > > > > > > mnnaveen@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 to stop supporting Win7 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 3:54 PM Lin Yua= n > < > > > > > > > > > apeforest@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Community, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently, our MXNet installation > guide for > > > > Windows > > > > > > > does > > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > work > > > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Windows 7. e.g. Microsoft Visual > Studio 2015 > > is > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > supported on > > > > > > > > > > > > > Windows > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/support/vs2015/received-error-speci= fied-program-requires-newer-version-windows/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In addition, MSFT ended =E2=80=9CMain= stream=E2=80=9D > support > > > for > > > > > > > Windows > > > > > > > > 7 > > > > > > > > > > in 2015 > > > > > > > > > > > ( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-she= et > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, it is not possible for > developers > > to > > > > build > > > > > > > > MXNet > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > verify > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fix on Windows 7 platform. Given that > there > > > have > > > > been > > > > > > > > > several > > > > > > > > > > > issues > > > > > > > > > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MXNet error on Windows 7 (issue#9271 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/9271 > > > > > > > >, > > > > > > > > > > issue > > > > > > > > > > > #8921 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/8921 > > > > > > > >, > > > > > > > > > > issue > > > > > > > > > > > > #11163 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < > > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/11163 > > > > > > > > >), > > > > > > > > > > it will > > > > > > > > > > > > > even > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > add > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > more burden on developers in the > future if we > > > > were to > > > > > > > > > > continue > > > > > > > > > > > > > supporting > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Windows 7. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I therefore would like to propose tha= t > we > > > > discontinue > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > support > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MXNet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > on Windows 7 in the next release. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Specifically, this means the followin= g > > required > > > > > > > actions: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) state the discontinuation of > Windows 7 > > > > support in > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > release > > > > > > > > > > > note > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) update the MXNet webpage if Window= s > > version > > > is > > > > > > > > > mentioned. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3) update the open Github issues > related to > > > > Windows 7 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please share your thoughts about this > > proposal > > > > and/or > > > > > > > > > > suggest if > > > > > > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > any other missing action item from th= e > above. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Sandeep Krishnamurthy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --0000000000009ea7a00574e6ebe9--