From dev-return-4048-archive-asf-public=cust-asf.ponee.io@mxnet.incubator.apache.org Mon Sep 3 10:25:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: archive-asf-public@cust-asf.ponee.io Delivered-To: archive-asf-public@cust-asf.ponee.io Received: from mail.apache.org (hermes.apache.org [140.211.11.3]) by mx-eu-01.ponee.io (Postfix) with SMTP id 44FE2180647 for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2018 10:25:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 49762 invoked by uid 500); 3 Sep 2018 08:25:16 -0000 Mailing-List: contact dev-help@mxnet.incubator.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: dev@mxnet.incubator.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list dev@mxnet.incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 49750 invoked by uid 99); 3 Sep 2018 08:25:15 -0000 Received: from pnap-us-west-generic-nat.apache.org (HELO spamd1-us-west.apache.org) (209.188.14.142) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Mon, 03 Sep 2018 08:25:15 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spamd1-us-west.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at spamd1-us-west.apache.org) with ESMTP id 106B7C239C for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2018 08:25:15 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at spamd1-us-west.apache.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.391 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.391 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=2, KAM_NUMSUBJECT=0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=disabled Authentication-Results: spamd1-us-west.apache.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mx1-lw-us.apache.org ([10.40.0.8]) by localhost (spamd1-us-west.apache.org [10.40.0.7]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kKlugqXmhXLi for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2018 08:25:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-oi0-f65.google.com (mail-oi0-f65.google.com [209.85.218.65]) by mx1-lw-us.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at mx1-lw-us.apache.org) with ESMTPS id 4205D5F1B3 for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2018 08:25:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-oi0-f65.google.com with SMTP id t68-v6so32167345oie.12 for ; Mon, 03 Sep 2018 01:25:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=xZn9YM5Cte4YuqrzdiQ/F1dYBlRR0+XtWbSh61Dyzyw=; b=pQP3mMdxeCzZA4AniSaVFJrlCVEwba14S0DdDN/hD/hFPoidIxzIFlENZ3sSbKHCXo mwNxeXuHSMbdMif2poAyI5oMC9WMQRu+99BB2gNkPNz2gVTOMKHO9sZOfBwfJHXPkePP deGROCoMrM65xzArm/ANW7tjUrRIFc3BRmic9NV7t3p7eh14RZbFuy8r/kLznI53XmRW NsF4EBUAzTtMrsODdVc8+lBET43szs6E2Wz7m7f7JdUqQnXyUo+DepoRJjJRYODgm1+H DWul4m6qX+FYdnS9HP4RnDJVDb6pDWmI3mqoa1eFPgX3WG93QsDyw8lNJFP90vcPZhwN Hk9Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=xZn9YM5Cte4YuqrzdiQ/F1dYBlRR0+XtWbSh61Dyzyw=; b=fFpMWs69MvbObGyNsQsaqYMTviBsCtCoY1NPwQz43tpPEACb4RzcPwOeK6/DnX4HDz hT6P7sGXc6sDAbYmYueKGSPnbaFNMPYiRViNx2w3sX/OTEsXiJBqyqXUK48axt/xGs+c WCGqkok0lh9JOozc4765w0Ux1Z8qAREV2zGYCKMs8zQeY7RsexGqI60TcAsP4unsaqJq Je8+nsBZHLiYJyeHRZkeFV1vng6g5GqFK8J7cEpTdiMdHY3FIJNS7rMrp1QT/5RsPGZL Ds7Kj418IluDwmRFs4Yqvw+8GP1jFIhIpwsY2Yxkc7JV16xao1vzu3keKP2/yAgGPzvF Gzrg== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51CB/fOqmncCOZI+rOQB8i5GEzCCA9L9CKkKg/gVF/EIYfE4N0l1 zrmXPglYise3V51Rpqblfim65OZiBeBFgEUe/mgldSzQ X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdasawzKfHOB2Kd93LyXyU1BC0fiDjuGVKiWcJ5vqnkRYNKfrbOcBp8hxkeTvqLc3J/8bjX/hg+yjCI+1ssB65M= X-Received: by 2002:aca:ad4f:: with SMTP id w76-v6mr8063622oie.233.1535963110940; Mon, 03 Sep 2018 01:25:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <64462187-5C0A-4464-AFE7-BCE7DE118FF0@analog.com> In-Reply-To: From: Lin Yuan Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2018 01:24:59 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7 To: dev@mxnet.incubator.apache.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009da2c70574f3477c" --0000000000009da2c70574f3477c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for all the constructive discussions. I have a few thoughts on this topic: When we say we support a particular platform X, I suppose it means the following processes in production: 1) Active developer support, the minimum of which is a clear instruction to build from source on X. 2) Thorough test in each release/patch on X. 3) Continuous integration on X It seems today we are missing all of them for Windows 7 (correct me if I am wrong). I have found issues opened over 9 months ago #9271 which fails simply by importing mxnet and exiting on Windows 7. Thus, I am wondering how many users are actually running MXNet on Windows 7 for meaningful work. How did live by with such an obvious blocker. If we do have a large active user base to support, we then should dedicate resource to implement the above three items in order to claim that we support Windows 7. After all, maybe we should change the thread topic to "Should we start supporting Windows 7 again?" :) I really appreciate your valuable comments. Have a great labor day weekend! Lin On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 12:37 PM Timur Shenkao wrote: > >> I also believe that it is possible to install more recent >> versions = of > Visual Studio on Windows 7. > > It's about security reasons and AD permissions and bought licenses for VS= , > not about general technical impossibility of installation of up-to-date > versions. > > On Sunday, September 2, 2018, Marco de Abreu > wrote: > > > Thanks for the data and these quite important points. I agree and hereb= y > > change my vote to -1. > > > > Barber, Christopher schrieb am So., 2. > > Sep. > > 2018, 18:56: > > > > > FWIW, my company is only beginning to transition to Windows 10 now, a= nd > > my > > > past experience would lead me to believe that many enterprises stick > with > > > old versions of Windows long past when you think they would. > > > > > > Seems to me that if you are unwilling to deprecate python 2.7, then > > > continuing to support Windows 7 is a no-brainer. You are more likely = to > > get > > > users to switch to python 3 than you are to get them to install a new > > > operating system. > > > > > > And do you really want to drop support for platforms that your > > competitors > > > still support? Given MXNet's market share, I wouldn't dream of > dropping a > > > platform until after the more popular frameworks have already done so= . > > > > > > I also believe that it is possible to install more recent versions of > > > Visual Studio on Windows 7. > > > > > > =EF=BB=BFOn 9/2/18, 1:57 AM, "kellen sunderland" > > > wrote: > > > > > > Google analytics are sadly probably the best numbers we're going = to > > > get. > > > Of course these numbers are likely to over-represent windows usag= e, > > as > > > I'm > > > sure many people are looking up documentation on a windows machin= e > > > while > > > ssh'd into a cloud instance or IoT device. > > > > > > What's the trend over time for these numbers Mu? Is Windows 7 > usage > > > relatively stable over the last year? > > > > > > On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 1:58 AM Mu Li wrote: > > > > > > > According to google analytics, ~12% users who visited mxnet's > > > website are > > > > using Windows 7. It's a significant number. Even though we cann= ot > > > conclude > > > > that all of these users will run MXNet on Windows 7, I suggest = we > > > still > > > > support win7. > > > > > > > > BTW, anyone who can access mxnet's google analytics report can > > > verify this > > > > number by following this instruction: > > > > > > > > > > > https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1340778/detecting- > > windows-7-with-google-analytics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 1:55 PM Steffen Rochel < > > > steffenrochel@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I support a data driven decision. Any suggestions how we can > > obtain > > > > insight > > > > > about OS usage of the MXNet user community? > > > > > Can we get such information from pip install statistics or > should > > > we > > > > > perform a user poll on the discussion forum? > > > > > On the other hand the lack of data should not prevent us from > > > moving > > > > > forward and dropping support for outdated OS. > > > > > In any case we would have to announce dropping a platform > support > > > at > > > > least > > > > > a release in advance. > > > > > Steffen > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:21 PM Sheng Zha < > zhasheng@apache.org> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Kellen, > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I don't have the > > > usage data, > > > > > so > > > > > > I refrained from voting. If any of the voters have such dat= a > > I'd > > > love > > > > to > > > > > > see it too. > > > > > > > > > > > > -sz > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2018/08/30 14:58:09, kellen sunderland < > > > kellen.sunderland@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > I haven't spoken to anyone about the decision (as I'm > > > currently on an > > > > > > > island in the med) but to me the quick +1s are likely a > > result > > > of > > > > this > > > > > > > being a fairly straightforward decision. The factors tha= t > > > went into > > > > my > > > > > > > thinking were (1) prioritizing growing platforms rather > than > > > > shrinking > > > > > > > platforms (i.e. thinking long term rather than shirt term= ) > > and > > > (2) > > > > > > earning > > > > > > > our customers' trust. Claiming support for a platform wh= en > > we > > > can't > > > > > > > realistically deliver it would lose us trust. I'd prefer > to > > > over > > > > > deliver > > > > > > > and under promise when it come to windows 7 for this > reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now on the flip side one thing I would see as valuable is > to > > > try and > > > > > get > > > > > > > windows builds working with clang. This could be > beneficial > > > in the > > > > > sense > > > > > > > that it would be easy to maintain for mxnet devs and allo= w > us > > > to use > > > > > > modern > > > > > > > cpp on older windows machines without using vs 2013(which= I > > > consider > > > > a > > > > > > > non-starter with our codebase). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You have peaked my curiousity though Sheng. How many win= 7 > > > users does > > > > > > MXNet > > > > > > > have relative to macos/Linux? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 8:51 AM Sheng Zha < > szha.pvg@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Yuan, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No problem. This is an issue that's worth having a clea= r > > > > definition, > > > > > so > > > > > > > > there's nothing wrong about your proposal, and thanks f= or > > > bringing > > > > > > this up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm more concerned about the seemingly unanimous votes = on > > > dropping > > > > > > support > > > > > > > > on a platform without seeing the supporting evidence th= at > > > it's the > > > > > > right > > > > > > > > thing. It is as if everyone who participated in the vot= e > > are > > > > already > > > > > > on the > > > > > > > > same page, and somehow I'm the only one that's not. But > the > > > only > > > > > > argument I > > > > > > > > hear so far is that it's technically not straightforwar= d > to > > > > continue > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > support, which, coming from Amazon folks, certainly > doesn't > > > sound > > > > > > > > customer-obsessed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -sz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:37 PM Lin Yuan < > > > apeforest@gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Sheng, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for raising this concern. The problem now is > that > > we > > > > cannot > > > > > > even > > > > > > > > > build MXNet on Windows 7 because the build process > > > requires MS VS > > > > > > 2015 w/ > > > > > > > > > update 3 which is incompatible on Windows 7. This > leaves > > > many > > > > > > Windows 7 > > > > > > > > > related open issues on github without any timely > > response. > > > In my > > > > > > opinion, > > > > > > > > > having no response to users' request is probably even > > > worse than > > > > > > letting > > > > > > > > > them know the limitation of OS support. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To minimize the impact to current Windows 7 users, we > can > > > provide > > > > > > PyPi > > > > > > > > > package for Windows 7 in this release but defer the b= ug > > > fix and > > > > > > feature > > > > > > > > > enhancement to later Windows OS version. Based on > users' > > > > feedbacks, > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > then officially discontinue the Windows 7 support in > the > > > next > > > > MXNet > > > > > > > > > release. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will appreciate your comments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:37 PM Sheng Zha < > > > szha.pvg@gmail.com> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are any of the votes based on any measure of user > > > impact, if we > > > > > > indeed > > > > > > > > > > decide not to fix the current problems? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -sz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:29 PM Hagay Lupesko < > > > > lupesko@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 (non-binding) > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for raising this Lin! > > > > > > > > > > > Are you suggesting to do it as part of MXNet 1.3? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:14 AM Srivastava, Rohit > > > Kumar < > > > > > > > > > > > srivastava.141@buckeyemail.osu.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 8/29/18, 8:39 AM, "sandeep krishnamurthy" < > > > > > > > > > > > sandeep.krishna98@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 Thanks for bringing this up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 6:38 AM Marco de > Abreu > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:08 PM kellen > > > sunderland < > > > > > > > > > > > > > kellen.sunderland@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 (non-binding) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 1:18 AM Anirudh > > > Acharya < > > > > > > > > > > > > anirudhkrec@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 for discontinuing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 4:11 PM Navee= n > > > Swamy < > > > > > > > > > > > mnnaveen@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 to stop supporting Win7 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 3:54 PM Lin > > Yuan > > > < > > > > > > > > > > > apeforest@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Community, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently, our MXNet installation > > > guide for > > > > > > Windows > > > > > > > > > does > > > > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > > work > > > > > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Windows 7. e.g. Microsoft Visual > > > Studio 2015 > > > > is > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > > supported on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Windows > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/support/vs2015/received-error- > > specified-program-requires-newer-version-windows/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In addition, MSFT ended > =E2=80=9CMainstream=E2=80=9D > > > support > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > Windows > > > > > > > > > > 7 > > > > > > > > > > > > in 2015 > > > > > > > > > > > > > ( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows- > > lifecycle-fact-sheet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, it is not possible for > > > developers > > > > to > > > > > > build > > > > > > > > > > MXNet > > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > verify > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fix on Windows 7 platform. Given > that > > > there > > > > > have > > > > > > been > > > > > > > > > > > several > > > > > > > > > > > > > issues > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MXNet error on Windows 7 > (issue#9271 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < > > > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/9271 > > > > > > > > > >, > > > > > > > > > > > > issue > > > > > > > > > > > > > #8921 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < > > > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/8921 > > > > > > > > > >, > > > > > > > > > > > > issue > > > > > > > > > > > > > > #11163 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < > > > > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/1116= 3 > > > > > > > > > > >), > > > > > > > > > > > > it will > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > even > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > add > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > more burden on developers in the > > > future if we > > > > > > were to > > > > > > > > > > > > continue > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > supporting > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Windows 7. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I therefore would like to propose > > that > > > we > > > > > > discontinue > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > support > > > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MXNet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > on Windows 7 in the next release. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Specifically, this means the > > following > > > > required > > > > > > > > > actions: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) state the discontinuation of > > > Windows 7 > > > > > > support in > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > release > > > > > > > > > > > > > note > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) update the MXNet webpage if > > Windows > > > > version > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > mentioned. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3) update the open Github issues > > > related to > > > > > > Windows 7 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please share your thoughts about > this > > > > proposal > > > > > > and/or > > > > > > > > > > > > suggest if > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > any other missing action item fro= m > > the > > > above. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Sandeep Krishnamurthy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --0000000000009da2c70574f3477c--