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From kellen sunderland <kellen.sunderl...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7
Date Wed, 05 Sep 2018 09:48:03 GMT
I've seen enough anecdotes to switch to -1.  Visual Studio 2017 claims
support for Windows 7:
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/productinfo/vs2017-system-requirements-vs
so I'm not sure if compiler support is really an issue.

On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 8:09 PM Joshua Z. Zhang <cheungchih@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have contacted some friends in industry, they claim that some controller
> PCs are still on win7 and have no plan to upgrade in near future, so I
> would strongly go -1.
>
> In terms of build system on Windows 7, MS does give warnings in VS 2015,
> but with compatibility mode, we can still install it without issue. So I
> guess it’s marketing strategy not technical problem on MS side.
>
> Zhi
>
> > On Sep 4, 2018, at 9:02 AM, sebastianb <sebastianb@wolfram.com.INVALID>
> wrote:
> >
> > One more data point: Mathematica still supports Windows 7 (with Platform
> Update), and we use MXNet as a backend for our neural net framework. So I
> would also vote against deprecating Windows 7 support.
> >
> >> On Sep 2, 2018, at 7:40 PM, Marco de Abreu <
> marco.g.abreu@googlemail.com.INVALID> wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks for the data and these quite important points. I agree and hereby
> >> change my vote to -1.
> >>
> >> Barber, Christopher <Christopher.Barber@analog.com> schrieb am So., 2.
> Sep.
> >> 2018, 18:56:
> >>
> >>> FWIW, my company is only beginning to transition to Windows 10 now,
> and my
> >>> past experience would lead me to believe that many enterprises stick
> with
> >>> old versions of Windows long past when you think they would.
> >>>
> >>> Seems to me that if you are unwilling to deprecate python 2.7, then
> >>> continuing to support Windows 7 is a no-brainer. You are more likely
> to get
> >>> users to switch to python 3 than you are to get them to install a new
> >>> operating system.
> >>>
> >>> And do you really want to drop support for platforms that your
> competitors
> >>> still support? Given MXNet's market share, I wouldn't dream of
> dropping a
> >>> platform until after the more popular frameworks have already done so.
> >>>
> >>> I also believe that it is possible to install more recent versions of
> >>> Visual Studio on Windows 7.
> >>>
> >>> On 9/2/18, 1:57 AM, "kellen sunderland" <kellen.sunderland@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>   Google analytics are sadly probably the best numbers we're going to
> >>> get.
> >>>   Of course these numbers are likely to over-represent windows usage,
> as
> >>> I'm
> >>>   sure many people are looking up documentation on a windows machine
> >>> while
> >>>   ssh'd into a cloud instance or IoT device.
> >>>
> >>>   What's the trend over time for these numbers Mu?  Is Windows 7 usage
> >>>   relatively stable over the last year?
> >>>
> >>>   On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 1:58 AM Mu Li <muli.cmu@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> According to google analytics, ~12% users who visited mxnet's
> >>> website are
> >>>> using Windows 7. It's a significant number. Even though we cannot
> >>> conclude
> >>>> that all of these users will run MXNet on Windows 7, I suggest we
> >>> still
> >>>> support win7.
> >>>>
> >>>> BTW, anyone who can access mxnet's google analytics report can
> >>> verify this
> >>>> number by following this instruction:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1340778/detecting-windows-7-with-google-analytics
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 1:55 PM Steffen Rochel <
> >>> steffenrochel@gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I support a data driven decision. Any suggestions how we can obtain
> >>>> insight
> >>>>> about OS usage of the MXNet user community?
> >>>>> Can we get such information from pip install statistics or should
> >>> we
> >>>>> perform a user poll on the discussion forum?
> >>>>> On the other hand the lack of data should not prevent us from
> >>> moving
> >>>>> forward and dropping support for outdated OS.
> >>>>> In any case we would have to announce dropping a platform support
> >>> at
> >>>> least
> >>>>> a release in advance.
> >>>>> Steffen
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:21 PM Sheng Zha <zhasheng@apache.org>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi Kellen,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I don't have the
> >>> usage data,
> >>>>> so
> >>>>>> I refrained from voting. If any of the voters have such data
I'd
> >>> love
> >>>> to
> >>>>>> see it too.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -sz
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 2018/08/30 14:58:09, kellen sunderland <
> >>> kellen.sunderland@gmail.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>> I haven't spoken to anyone about the decision (as I'm
> >>> currently on an
> >>>>>>> island in the med) but to me the quick +1s are likely a
result
> >>> of
> >>>> this
> >>>>>>> being a fairly straightforward decision.  The factors that
> >>> went into
> >>>> my
> >>>>>>> thinking were (1) prioritizing growing platforms rather
than
> >>>> shrinking
> >>>>>>> platforms (i.e. thinking long term rather than shirt term)
and
> >>> (2)
> >>>>>> earning
> >>>>>>> our customers' trust.  Claiming support for a platform when
we
> >>> can't
> >>>>>>> realistically deliver it would lose us trust.  I'd prefer
to
> >>> over
> >>>>> deliver
> >>>>>>> and under promise when it come to windows 7 for this reason.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Now on the flip side one thing I would see as valuable is
to
> >>> try and
> >>>>> get
> >>>>>>> windows builds working with clang.  This could be beneficial
> >>> in the
> >>>>> sense
> >>>>>>> that it would be easy to maintain for mxnet devs and allow
us
> >>> to use
> >>>>>> modern
> >>>>>>> cpp on older windows machines without using vs 2013(which
I
> >>> consider
> >>>> a
> >>>>>>> non-starter with our codebase).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> You have peaked my curiousity though Sheng.  How many win7
> >>> users does
> >>>>>> MXNet
> >>>>>>> have relative to macos/Linux?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 8:51 AM Sheng Zha <szha.pvg@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi Yuan,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> No problem. This is an issue that's worth having a clear
> >>>> definition,
> >>>>> so
> >>>>>>>> there's nothing wrong about your proposal, and thanks
for
> >>> bringing
> >>>>>> this up.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I'm more concerned about the seemingly unanimous votes
on
> >>> dropping
> >>>>>> support
> >>>>>>>> on a platform without seeing the supporting evidence
that
> >>> it's the
> >>>>>> right
> >>>>>>>> thing. It is as if everyone who participated in the
vote are
> >>>> already
> >>>>>> on the
> >>>>>>>> same page, and somehow I'm the only one that's not.
But the
> >>> only
> >>>>>> argument I
> >>>>>>>> hear so far is that it's technically not straightforward
to
> >>>> continue
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> support, which, coming from Amazon folks, certainly
doesn't
> >>> sound
> >>>>>>>> customer-obsessed.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -sz
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:37 PM Lin Yuan <
> >>> apeforest@gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Hi Sheng,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for raising this concern. The problem now
is that we
> >>>> cannot
> >>>>>> even
> >>>>>>>>> build MXNet on Windows 7 because the build process
> >>> requires MS VS
> >>>>>> 2015 w/
> >>>>>>>>> update 3 which is incompatible on Windows 7. This
leaves
> >>> many
> >>>>>> Windows 7
> >>>>>>>>> related open issues on github without any timely
response.
> >>> In my
> >>>>>> opinion,
> >>>>>>>>> having no response to users' request is probably
even
> >>> worse than
> >>>>>> letting
> >>>>>>>>> them know the limitation of OS support.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> To minimize the impact to current Windows 7 users,
we can
> >>> provide
> >>>>>> PyPi
> >>>>>>>>> package for Windows 7 in this release but defer
the bug
> >>> fix and
> >>>>>> feature
> >>>>>>>>> enhancement to later Windows OS version. Based on
users'
> >>>> feedbacks,
> >>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>> can
> >>>>>>>>> then officially discontinue the Windows 7 support
in the
> >>> next
> >>>> MXNet
> >>>>>>>>> release.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I will appreciate your comments.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Lin
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:37 PM Sheng Zha <
> >>> szha.pvg@gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Are any of the votes based on any measure of
user
> >>> impact, if we
> >>>>>> indeed
> >>>>>>>>>> decide not to fix the current problems?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> -sz
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:29 PM Hagay Lupesko
<
> >>>> lupesko@gmail.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> +1 (non-binding)
> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for raising this Lin!
> >>>>>>>>>>> Are you suggesting to do it as part of MXNet
1.3?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:14 AM Srivastava,
Rohit
> >>> Kumar <
> >>>>>>>>>>> srivastava.141@buckeyemail.osu.edu> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> +1
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/29/18, 8:39 AM, "sandeep krishnamurthy"
<
> >>>>>>>>>>> sandeep.krishna98@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>   +1 Thanks for bringing this up.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>   On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 6:38 AM Marco
de Abreu
> >>>>>>>>>>>>   <marco.g.abreu@googlemail.com.invalid>
wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> +1
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:08 PM
kellen
> >>> sunderland <
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> kellen.sunderland@gmail.com>
wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> +1 (non-binding)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 1:18 AM
Anirudh
> >>> Acharya <
> >>>>>>>>>>>> anirudhkrec@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> +1 for discontinuing.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at
4:11 PM Naveen
> >>> Swamy <
> >>>>>>>>>>> mnnaveen@gmail.com
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> +1 to stop supporting
Win7
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018
at 3:54 PM Lin Yuan
> >>> <
> >>>>>>>>>>> apeforest@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear Community,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Currently, our MXNet
installation
> >>> guide for
> >>>>>> Windows
> >>>>>>>>> does
> >>>>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>> work
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Windows 7. e.g.
Microsoft Visual
> >>> Studio 2015
> >>>> is
> >>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>> supported on
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Windows
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/support/vs2015/received-error-specified-program-requires-newer-version-windows/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In addition, MSFT
ended “Mainstream”
> >>> support
> >>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>> Windows
> >>>>>>>>>> 7
> >>>>>>>>>>>> in 2015
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> (
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Therefore, it is
not possible for
> >>> developers
> >>>> to
> >>>>>> build
> >>>>>>>>>> MXNet
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> verify
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fix on Windows 7
platform. Given that
> >>> there
> >>>>> have
> >>>>>> been
> >>>>>>>>>>> several
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> issues
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MXNet error on Windows
7 (issue#9271
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
> >>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/9271
> >>>>>>>>>> ,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> issue
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> #8921
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
> >>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/8921
> >>>>>>>>>> ,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> issue
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> #11163
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
> >>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/11163
> >>>>>>>>>>> ),
> >>>>>>>>>>>> it will
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> add
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more burden on developers
in the
> >>> future if we
> >>>>>> were to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> continue
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> supporting
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Windows 7.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I therefore would
like to propose that
> >>> we
> >>>>>> discontinue
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> support
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MXNet
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on Windows 7 in
the next release.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Specifically, this
means the following
> >>>> required
> >>>>>>>>> actions:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) state the discontinuation
of
> >>> Windows 7
> >>>>>> support in
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> release
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> note
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) update the MXNet
webpage if Windows
> >>>> version
> >>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>> mentioned.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) update the open
Github issues
> >>> related to
> >>>>>> Windows 7
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please share your
thoughts about this
> >>>> proposal
> >>>>>> and/or
> >>>>>>>>>>>> suggest if
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> there
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any other missing
action item from the
> >>> above.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best Regards,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lin
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>   --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>   Sandeep Krishnamurthy
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
>
>

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