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From kellen sunderland <kellen.sunderl...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7
Date Sun, 02 Sep 2018 05:57:07 GMT
Google analytics are sadly probably the best numbers we're going to get.
Of course these numbers are likely to over-represent windows usage, as I'm
sure many people are looking up documentation on a windows machine while
ssh'd into a cloud instance or IoT device.

What's the trend over time for these numbers Mu?  Is Windows 7 usage
relatively stable over the last year?

On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 1:58 AM Mu Li <muli.cmu@gmail.com> wrote:

> According to google analytics, ~12% users who visited mxnet's website are
> using Windows 7. It's a significant number. Even though we cannot conclude
> that all of these users will run MXNet on Windows 7, I suggest we still
> support win7.
>
> BTW, anyone who can access mxnet's google analytics report can verify this
> number by following this instruction:
>
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1340778/detecting-windows-7-with-google-analytics
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 1:55 PM Steffen Rochel <steffenrochel@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I support a data driven decision. Any suggestions how we can obtain
> insight
> > about OS usage of the MXNet user community?
> > Can we get such information from pip install statistics or should we
> > perform a user poll on the discussion forum?
> > On the other hand the lack of data should not prevent us from moving
> > forward and dropping support for outdated OS.
> > In any case we would have to announce dropping a platform support at
> least
> > a release in advance.
> > Steffen
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:21 PM Sheng Zha <zhasheng@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Kellen,
> > >
> > > Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I don't have the usage data,
> > so
> > > I refrained from voting. If any of the voters have such data I'd love
> to
> > > see it too.
> > >
> > > -sz
> > >
> > > On 2018/08/30 14:58:09, kellen sunderland <kellen.sunderland@gmail.com
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > > I haven't spoken to anyone about the decision (as I'm currently on an
> > > > island in the med) but to me the quick +1s are likely a result of
> this
> > > > being a fairly straightforward decision.  The factors that went into
> my
> > > > thinking were (1) prioritizing growing platforms rather than
> shrinking
> > > > platforms (i.e. thinking long term rather than shirt term) and (2)
> > > earning
> > > > our customers' trust.  Claiming support for a platform when we can't
> > > > realistically deliver it would lose us trust.  I'd prefer to over
> > deliver
> > > > and under promise when it come to windows 7 for this reason.
> > > >
> > > > Now on the flip side one thing I would see as valuable is to try and
> > get
> > > > windows builds working with clang.  This could be beneficial in the
> > sense
> > > > that it would be easy to maintain for mxnet devs and allow us to use
> > > modern
> > > > cpp on older windows machines without using vs 2013(which I consider
> a
> > > > non-starter with our codebase).
> > > >
> > > > You have peaked my curiousity though Sheng.  How many win7 users does
> > > MXNet
> > > > have relative to macos/Linux?
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 8:51 AM Sheng Zha <szha.pvg@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Yuan,
> > > > >
> > > > > No problem. This is an issue that's worth having a clear
> definition,
> > so
> > > > > there's nothing wrong about your proposal, and thanks for bringing
> > > this up.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm more concerned about the seemingly unanimous votes on dropping
> > > support
> > > > > on a platform without seeing the supporting evidence that it's the
> > > right
> > > > > thing. It is as if everyone who participated in the vote are
> already
> > > on the
> > > > > same page, and somehow I'm the only one that's not. But the only
> > > argument I
> > > > > hear so far is that it's technically not straightforward to
> continue
> > > the
> > > > > support, which, coming from Amazon folks, certainly doesn't sound
> > > > > customer-obsessed.
> > > > >
> > > > > -sz
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:37 PM Lin Yuan <apeforest@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Sheng,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for raising this concern. The problem now is that we
> cannot
> > > even
> > > > > > build MXNet on Windows 7 because the build process requires
MS VS
> > > 2015 w/
> > > > > > update 3 which is incompatible on Windows 7. This leaves many
> > > Windows 7
> > > > > > related open issues on github without any timely response. In
my
> > > opinion,
> > > > > > having no response to users' request is probably even worse
than
> > > letting
> > > > > > them know the limitation of OS support.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To minimize the impact to current Windows 7 users, we can provide
> > > PyPi
> > > > > > package for Windows 7 in this release but defer the bug fix
and
> > > feature
> > > > > > enhancement to later Windows OS version. Based on users'
> feedbacks,
> > > we
> > > > > can
> > > > > > then officially discontinue the Windows 7 support in the next
> MXNet
> > > > > > release.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I will appreciate your comments.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lin
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:37 PM Sheng Zha <szha.pvg@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Are any of the votes based on any measure of user impact,
if we
> > > indeed
> > > > > > > decide not to fix the current problems?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -sz
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:29 PM Hagay Lupesko <
> lupesko@gmail.com
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > +1 (non-binding)
> > > > > > > > Thanks for raising this Lin!
> > > > > > > > Are you suggesting to do it as part of MXNet 1.3?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:14 AM Srivastava, Rohit
Kumar <
> > > > > > > > srivastava.141@buckeyemail.osu.edu> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > +1
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On 8/29/18, 8:39 AM, "sandeep krishnamurthy"
<
> > > > > > > > sandeep.krishna98@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     +1 Thanks for bringing this up.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 6:38 AM Marco de
Abreu
> > > > > > > > >     <marco.g.abreu@googlemail.com.invalid>
wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > +1
> > > > > > > > >     >
> > > > > > > > >     > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:08 PM kellen
sunderland <
> > > > > > > > >     > kellen.sunderland@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >     >
> > > > > > > > >     > > +1 (non-binding)
> > > > > > > > >     > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 1:18 AM Anirudh
Acharya <
> > > > > > > > > anirudhkrec@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > >     > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >     > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > > +1 for discontinuing.
> > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 4:11
PM Naveen Swamy <
> > > > > > > > mnnaveen@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > +1 to stop supporting
Win7
> > > > > > > > >     > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018
at 3:54 PM Lin Yuan <
> > > > > > > > apeforest@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > >     > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >     > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Dear Community,
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Currently, our MXNet
installation guide for
> > > Windows
> > > > > > does
> > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > work
> > > > > > > > >     > for
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Windows 7. e.g.
Microsoft Visual Studio 2015
> is
> > > not
> > > > > > > > > supported on
> > > > > > > > >     > > > Windows
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > 7
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > > <
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > >
> > > > > > > > >     >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/support/vs2015/received-error-specified-program-requires-newer-version-windows/
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > > >.
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > > In addition, MSFT
ended “Mainstream” support
> > for
> > > > > > Windows
> > > > > > > 7
> > > > > > > > > in 2015
> > > > > > > > >     > (
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > >
> > > > > > > > >     >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > > ).
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Therefore, it is
not possible for developers
> to
> > > build
> > > > > > > MXNet
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > >     > > verify
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > the
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > > fix on Windows 7
platform. Given that there
> > have
> > > been
> > > > > > > > several
> > > > > > > > >     > issues
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > about
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > > MXNet error on Windows
7 (issue#9271
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > > <
> > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/9271
> > > > > > >,
> > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > >     > #8921
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > > <
> > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/8921
> > > > > > >,
> > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > >     > > #11163
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > > <
> > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/11163
> > > > > > > >),
> > > > > > > > > it will
> > > > > > > > >     > > > even
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > > add
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > > more burden on developers
in the future if we
> > > were to
> > > > > > > > > continue
> > > > > > > > >     > > > supporting
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Windows 7.
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > > I therefore would
like to propose that we
> > > discontinue
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > support
> > > > > > > > >     > of
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > MXNet
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > > on Windows 7 in
the next release.
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Specifically, this
means the following
> required
> > > > > > actions:
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > > 1) state the discontinuation
of Windows 7
> > > support in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > release
> > > > > > > > >     > note
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > > 2) update the MXNet
webpage if Windows
> version
> > is
> > > > > > > > mentioned.
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > > 3) update the open
Github issues related to
> > > Windows 7
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Please share your
thoughts about this
> proposal
> > > and/or
> > > > > > > > > suggest if
> > > > > > > > >     > > there
> > > > > > > > >     > > > is
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > > any other missing
action item from the above.
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Best Regards,
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Lin
> > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > > > > > > > >     > >
> > > > > > > > >     >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >     --
> > > > > > > > >     Sandeep Krishnamurthy
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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