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From Marco de Abreu <marco.g.ab...@googlemail.com.INVALID>
Subject Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7
Date Sun, 02 Sep 2018 17:40:17 GMT
Thanks for the data and these quite important points. I agree and hereby
change my vote to -1.

Barber, Christopher <Christopher.Barber@analog.com> schrieb am So., 2. Sep.
2018, 18:56:

> FWIW, my company is only beginning to transition to Windows 10 now, and my
> past experience would lead me to believe that many enterprises stick with
> old versions of Windows long past when you think they would.
>
> Seems to me that if you are unwilling to deprecate python 2.7, then
> continuing to support Windows 7 is a no-brainer. You are more likely to get
> users to switch to python 3 than you are to get them to install a new
> operating system.
>
> And do you really want to drop support for platforms that your competitors
> still support? Given MXNet's market share, I wouldn't dream of dropping a
> platform until after the more popular frameworks have already done so.
>
> I also believe that it is possible to install more recent versions of
> Visual Studio on Windows 7.
>
> On 9/2/18, 1:57 AM, "kellen sunderland" <kellen.sunderland@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>     Google analytics are sadly probably the best numbers we're going to
> get.
>     Of course these numbers are likely to over-represent windows usage, as
> I'm
>     sure many people are looking up documentation on a windows machine
> while
>     ssh'd into a cloud instance or IoT device.
>
>     What's the trend over time for these numbers Mu?  Is Windows 7 usage
>     relatively stable over the last year?
>
>     On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 1:58 AM Mu Li <muli.cmu@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>     > According to google analytics, ~12% users who visited mxnet's
> website are
>     > using Windows 7. It's a significant number. Even though we cannot
> conclude
>     > that all of these users will run MXNet on Windows 7, I suggest we
> still
>     > support win7.
>     >
>     > BTW, anyone who can access mxnet's google analytics report can
> verify this
>     > number by following this instruction:
>     >
>     >
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1340778/detecting-windows-7-with-google-analytics
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 1:55 PM Steffen Rochel <
> steffenrochel@gmail.com>
>     > wrote:
>     >
>     > > I support a data driven decision. Any suggestions how we can obtain
>     > insight
>     > > about OS usage of the MXNet user community?
>     > > Can we get such information from pip install statistics or should
> we
>     > > perform a user poll on the discussion forum?
>     > > On the other hand the lack of data should not prevent us from
> moving
>     > > forward and dropping support for outdated OS.
>     > > In any case we would have to announce dropping a platform support
> at
>     > least
>     > > a release in advance.
>     > > Steffen
>     > >
>     > > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:21 PM Sheng Zha <zhasheng@apache.org>
> wrote:
>     > >
>     > > > Hi Kellen,
>     > > >
>     > > > Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I don't have the
> usage data,
>     > > so
>     > > > I refrained from voting. If any of the voters have such data I'd
> love
>     > to
>     > > > see it too.
>     > > >
>     > > > -sz
>     > > >
>     > > > On 2018/08/30 14:58:09, kellen sunderland <
> kellen.sunderland@gmail.com
>     > >
>     > > > wrote:
>     > > > > I haven't spoken to anyone about the decision (as I'm
> currently on an
>     > > > > island in the med) but to me the quick +1s are likely a result
> of
>     > this
>     > > > > being a fairly straightforward decision.  The factors that
> went into
>     > my
>     > > > > thinking were (1) prioritizing growing platforms rather than
>     > shrinking
>     > > > > platforms (i.e. thinking long term rather than shirt term) and
> (2)
>     > > > earning
>     > > > > our customers' trust.  Claiming support for a platform when we
> can't
>     > > > > realistically deliver it would lose us trust.  I'd prefer to
> over
>     > > deliver
>     > > > > and under promise when it come to windows 7 for this reason.
>     > > > >
>     > > > > Now on the flip side one thing I would see as valuable is to
> try and
>     > > get
>     > > > > windows builds working with clang.  This could be beneficial
> in the
>     > > sense
>     > > > > that it would be easy to maintain for mxnet devs and allow us
> to use
>     > > > modern
>     > > > > cpp on older windows machines without using vs 2013(which I
> consider
>     > a
>     > > > > non-starter with our codebase).
>     > > > >
>     > > > > You have peaked my curiousity though Sheng.  How many win7
> users does
>     > > > MXNet
>     > > > > have relative to macos/Linux?
>     > > > >
>     > > > > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 8:51 AM Sheng Zha <szha.pvg@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>     > > > >
>     > > > > > Hi Yuan,
>     > > > > >
>     > > > > > No problem. This is an issue that's worth having a clear
>     > definition,
>     > > so
>     > > > > > there's nothing wrong about your proposal, and thanks for
> bringing
>     > > > this up.
>     > > > > >
>     > > > > > I'm more concerned about the seemingly unanimous votes on
> dropping
>     > > > support
>     > > > > > on a platform without seeing the supporting evidence that
> it's the
>     > > > right
>     > > > > > thing. It is as if everyone who participated in the vote
are
>     > already
>     > > > on the
>     > > > > > same page, and somehow I'm the only one that's not. But
the
> only
>     > > > argument I
>     > > > > > hear so far is that it's technically not straightforward
to
>     > continue
>     > > > the
>     > > > > > support, which, coming from Amazon folks, certainly doesn't
> sound
>     > > > > > customer-obsessed.
>     > > > > >
>     > > > > > -sz
>     > > > > >
>     > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:37 PM Lin Yuan <
> apeforest@gmail.com>
>     > > wrote:
>     > > > > >
>     > > > > > > Hi Sheng,
>     > > > > > >
>     > > > > > > Thanks for raising this concern. The problem now is
that we
>     > cannot
>     > > > even
>     > > > > > > build MXNet on Windows 7 because the build process
> requires MS VS
>     > > > 2015 w/
>     > > > > > > update 3 which is incompatible on Windows 7. This leaves
> many
>     > > > Windows 7
>     > > > > > > related open issues on github without any timely response.
> In my
>     > > > opinion,
>     > > > > > > having no response to users' request is probably even
> worse than
>     > > > letting
>     > > > > > > them know the limitation of OS support.
>     > > > > > >
>     > > > > > > To minimize the impact to current Windows 7 users,
we can
> provide
>     > > > PyPi
>     > > > > > > package for Windows 7 in this release but defer the
bug
> fix and
>     > > > feature
>     > > > > > > enhancement to later Windows OS version. Based on users'
>     > feedbacks,
>     > > > we
>     > > > > > can
>     > > > > > > then officially discontinue the Windows 7 support in
the
> next
>     > MXNet
>     > > > > > > release.
>     > > > > > >
>     > > > > > > I will appreciate your comments.
>     > > > > > >
>     > > > > > > Lin
>     > > > > > >
>     > > > > > >
>     > > > > > >
>     > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:37 PM Sheng Zha <
> szha.pvg@gmail.com>
>     > > > wrote:
>     > > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > Are any of the votes based on any measure of user
> impact, if we
>     > > > indeed
>     > > > > > > > decide not to fix the current problems?
>     > > > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > -sz
>     > > > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:29 PM Hagay Lupesko
<
>     > lupesko@gmail.com
>     > > >
>     > > > > > wrote:
>     > > > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > +1 (non-binding)
>     > > > > > > > > Thanks for raising this Lin!
>     > > > > > > > > Are you suggesting to do it as part of MXNet
1.3?
>     > > > > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:14 AM Srivastava,
Rohit
> Kumar <
>     > > > > > > > > srivastava.141@buckeyemail.osu.edu> wrote:
>     > > > > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > > +1
>     > > > > > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > > On 8/29/18, 8:39 AM, "sandeep krishnamurthy"
<
>     > > > > > > > > sandeep.krishna98@gmail.com>
>     > > > > > > > > > wrote:
>     > > > > > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     +1 Thanks for bringing this up.
>     > > > > > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 6:38 AM
Marco de Abreu
>     > > > > > > > > >     <marco.g.abreu@googlemail.com.invalid>
wrote:
>     > > > > > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > +1
>     > > > > > > > > >     >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:08
PM kellen
> sunderland <
>     > > > > > > > > >     > kellen.sunderland@gmail.com>
wrote:
>     > > > > > > > > >     >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > +1 (non-binding)
>     > > > > > > > > >     > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018,
1:18 AM Anirudh
> Acharya <
>     > > > > > > > > > anirudhkrec@gmail.com>
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > wrote:
>     > > > > > > > > >     > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > +1 for discontinuing.
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018
at 4:11 PM Naveen
> Swamy <
>     > > > > > > > > mnnaveen@gmail.com
>     > > > > > > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > wrote:
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > +1 to stop supporting
Win7
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > On Tue, Aug
28, 2018 at 3:54 PM Lin Yuan
> <
>     > > > > > > > > apeforest@gmail.com>
>     > > > > > > > > >     > wrote:
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Dear Community,
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Currently,
our MXNet installation
> guide for
>     > > > Windows
>     > > > > > > does
>     > > > > > > > > not
>     > > > > > > > > > work
>     > > > > > > > > >     > for
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Windows
7. e.g. Microsoft Visual
> Studio 2015
>     > is
>     > > > not
>     > > > > > > > > > supported on
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > Windows
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > 7
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > <
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     >
>     > > > > > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > >
>     > > > > > > >
>     > > > > > >
>     > > > > >
>     > > >
>     > >
>     >
> https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/support/vs2015/received-error-specified-program-requires-newer-version-windows/
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > >.
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > In addition,
MSFT ended “Mainstream”
> support
>     > > for
>     > > > > > > Windows
>     > > > > > > > 7
>     > > > > > > > > > in 2015
>     > > > > > > > > >     > (
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     >
>     > > > > > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > >
>     > > > > > > >
>     > > > > > >
>     > > > > >
>     > > >
>     > >
>     >
> https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > ).
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Therefore,
it is not possible for
> developers
>     > to
>     > > > build
>     > > > > > > > MXNet
>     > > > > > > > > > and
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > verify
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > the
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > fix on
Windows 7 platform. Given that
> there
>     > > have
>     > > > been
>     > > > > > > > > several
>     > > > > > > > > >     > issues
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > about
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > MXNet error
on Windows 7 (issue#9271
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > <
>     > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/9271
>     > > > > > > >,
>     > > > > > > > > > issue
>     > > > > > > > > >     > #8921
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > <
>     > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/8921
>     > > > > > > >,
>     > > > > > > > > > issue
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > #11163
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > <
>     > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/11163
>     > > > > > > > >),
>     > > > > > > > > > it will
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > even
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > add
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > more burden
on developers in the
> future if we
>     > > > were to
>     > > > > > > > > > continue
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > supporting
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Windows
7.
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > I therefore
would like to propose that
> we
>     > > > discontinue
>     > > > > > > the
>     > > > > > > > > > support
>     > > > > > > > > >     > of
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > MXNet
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > on Windows
7 in the next release.
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Specifically,
this means the following
>     > required
>     > > > > > > actions:
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > 1) state
the discontinuation of
> Windows 7
>     > > > support in
>     > > > > > > the
>     > > > > > > > > > release
>     > > > > > > > > >     > note
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > 2) update
the MXNet webpage if Windows
>     > version
>     > > is
>     > > > > > > > > mentioned.
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > 3) update
the open Github issues
> related to
>     > > > Windows 7
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Please
share your thoughts about this
>     > proposal
>     > > > and/or
>     > > > > > > > > > suggest if
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > there
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > is
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > any other
missing action item from the
> above.
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Best Regards,
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Lin
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     >
>     > > > > > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >     --
>     > > > > > > > > >     Sandeep Krishnamurthy
>     > > > > > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > > >
>     > > > > > > > >
>     > > > > > > >
>     > > > > > >
>     > > > > >
>     > > > >
>     > > >
>     > >
>     >
>
>
>

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