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From Steffen Rochel <steffenroc...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7
Date Sat, 01 Sep 2018 20:55:03 GMT
I support a data driven decision. Any suggestions how we can obtain insight
about OS usage of the MXNet user community?
Can we get such information from pip install statistics or should we
perform a user poll on the discussion forum?
On the other hand the lack of data should not prevent us from moving
forward and dropping support for outdated OS.
In any case we would have to announce dropping a platform support at least
a release in advance.
Steffen

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:21 PM Sheng Zha <zhasheng@apache.org> wrote:

> Hi Kellen,
>
> Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I don't have the usage data, so
> I refrained from voting. If any of the voters have such data I'd love to
> see it too.
>
> -sz
>
> On 2018/08/30 14:58:09, kellen sunderland <kellen.sunderland@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I haven't spoken to anyone about the decision (as I'm currently on an
> > island in the med) but to me the quick +1s are likely a result of this
> > being a fairly straightforward decision.  The factors that went into my
> > thinking were (1) prioritizing growing platforms rather than shrinking
> > platforms (i.e. thinking long term rather than shirt term) and (2)
> earning
> > our customers' trust.  Claiming support for a platform when we can't
> > realistically deliver it would lose us trust.  I'd prefer to over deliver
> > and under promise when it come to windows 7 for this reason.
> >
> > Now on the flip side one thing I would see as valuable is to try and get
> > windows builds working with clang.  This could be beneficial in the sense
> > that it would be easy to maintain for mxnet devs and allow us to use
> modern
> > cpp on older windows machines without using vs 2013(which I consider a
> > non-starter with our codebase).
> >
> > You have peaked my curiousity though Sheng.  How many win7 users does
> MXNet
> > have relative to macos/Linux?
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 8:51 AM Sheng Zha <szha.pvg@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Yuan,
> > >
> > > No problem. This is an issue that's worth having a clear definition, so
> > > there's nothing wrong about your proposal, and thanks for bringing
> this up.
> > >
> > > I'm more concerned about the seemingly unanimous votes on dropping
> support
> > > on a platform without seeing the supporting evidence that it's the
> right
> > > thing. It is as if everyone who participated in the vote are already
> on the
> > > same page, and somehow I'm the only one that's not. But the only
> argument I
> > > hear so far is that it's technically not straightforward to continue
> the
> > > support, which, coming from Amazon folks, certainly doesn't sound
> > > customer-obsessed.
> > >
> > > -sz
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:37 PM Lin Yuan <apeforest@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Sheng,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for raising this concern. The problem now is that we cannot
> even
> > > > build MXNet on Windows 7 because the build process requires MS VS
> 2015 w/
> > > > update 3 which is incompatible on Windows 7. This leaves many
> Windows 7
> > > > related open issues on github without any timely response. In my
> opinion,
> > > > having no response to users' request is probably even worse than
> letting
> > > > them know the limitation of OS support.
> > > >
> > > > To minimize the impact to current Windows 7 users, we can provide
> PyPi
> > > > package for Windows 7 in this release but defer the bug fix and
> feature
> > > > enhancement to later Windows OS version. Based on users' feedbacks,
> we
> > > can
> > > > then officially discontinue the Windows 7 support in the next MXNet
> > > > release.
> > > >
> > > > I will appreciate your comments.
> > > >
> > > > Lin
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:37 PM Sheng Zha <szha.pvg@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Are any of the votes based on any measure of user impact, if we
> indeed
> > > > > decide not to fix the current problems?
> > > > >
> > > > > -sz
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:29 PM Hagay Lupesko <lupesko@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > +1 (non-binding)
> > > > > > Thanks for raising this Lin!
> > > > > > Are you suggesting to do it as part of MXNet 1.3?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:14 AM Srivastava, Rohit Kumar <
> > > > > > srivastava.141@buckeyemail.osu.edu> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > +1
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 8/29/18, 8:39 AM, "sandeep krishnamurthy" <
> > > > > > sandeep.krishna98@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >     +1 Thanks for bringing this up.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >     On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 6:38 AM Marco de Abreu
> > > > > > >     <marco.g.abreu@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >     > +1
> > > > > > >     >
> > > > > > >     > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:08 PM kellen sunderland
<
> > > > > > >     > kellen.sunderland@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >     >
> > > > > > >     > > +1 (non-binding)
> > > > > > >     > >
> > > > > > >     > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 1:18 AM Anirudh Acharya
<
> > > > > > > anirudhkrec@gmail.com>
> > > > > > >     > > wrote:
> > > > > > >     > >
> > > > > > >     > > > +1 for discontinuing.
> > > > > > >     > > >
> > > > > > >     > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 4:11 PM Naveen
Swamy <
> > > > > > mnnaveen@gmail.com
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >     > wrote:
> > > > > > >     > > >
> > > > > > >     > > > > +1 to stop supporting Win7
> > > > > > >     > > > >
> > > > > > >     > > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 3:54 PM
Lin Yuan <
> > > > > > apeforest@gmail.com>
> > > > > > >     > wrote:
> > > > > > >     > > > >
> > > > > > >     > > > > > Dear Community,
> > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > >     > > > > > Currently, our MXNet installation
guide for
> Windows
> > > > does
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > work
> > > > > > >     > for
> > > > > > >     > > > > > Windows 7. e.g. Microsoft
Visual Studio 2015 is
> not
> > > > > > > supported on
> > > > > > >     > > > Windows
> > > > > > >     > > > > 7
> > > > > > >     > > > > > <
> > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > >     > > > >
> > > > > > >     > > >
> > > > > > >     > >
> > > > > > >     >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/support/vs2015/received-error-specified-program-requires-newer-version-windows/
> > > > > > >     > > > > > >.
> > > > > > >     > > > > > In addition, MSFT ended “Mainstream”
support for
> > > > Windows
> > > > > 7
> > > > > > > in 2015
> > > > > > >     > (
> > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > >     > > > >
> > > > > > >     > > >
> > > > > > >     > >
> > > > > > >     >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet
> > > > > > >     > > > > > ).
> > > > > > >     > > > > > Therefore, it is not possible
for developers to
> build
> > > > > MXNet
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > >     > > verify
> > > > > > >     > > > > the
> > > > > > >     > > > > > fix on Windows 7 platform.
Given that there have
> been
> > > > > > several
> > > > > > >     > issues
> > > > > > >     > > > > about
> > > > > > >     > > > > > MXNet error on Windows 7 (issue#9271
> > > > > > >     > > > > > <
> > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/9271
> > > > >,
> > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > >     > #8921
> > > > > > >     > > > > > <
> > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/8921
> > > > >,
> > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > >     > > #11163
> > > > > > >     > > > > > <
> > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/11163
> > > > > >),
> > > > > > > it will
> > > > > > >     > > > even
> > > > > > >     > > > > > add
> > > > > > >     > > > > > more burden on developers
in the future if we
> were to
> > > > > > > continue
> > > > > > >     > > > supporting
> > > > > > >     > > > > > Windows 7.
> > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > >     > > > > > I therefore would like to
propose that we
> discontinue
> > > > the
> > > > > > > support
> > > > > > >     > of
> > > > > > >     > > > > MXNet
> > > > > > >     > > > > > on Windows 7 in the next release.
> > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > >     > > > > > Specifically, this means the
following required
> > > > actions:
> > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > >     > > > > > 1) state the discontinuation
of Windows 7
> support in
> > > > the
> > > > > > > release
> > > > > > >     > note
> > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > >     > > > > > 2) update the MXNet webpage
if Windows version is
> > > > > > mentioned.
> > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > >     > > > > > 3) update the open Github
issues related to
> Windows 7
> > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > >     > > > > > Please share your thoughts
about this proposal
> and/or
> > > > > > > suggest if
> > > > > > >     > > there
> > > > > > >     > > > is
> > > > > > >     > > > > > any other missing action item
from the above.
> > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > >     > > > > > Best Regards,
> > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > >     > > > > > Lin
> > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > > >     > > > >
> > > > > > >     > > >
> > > > > > >     > >
> > > > > > >     >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >     --
> > > > > > >     Sandeep Krishnamurthy
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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