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From Lin Yuan <apefor...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7
Date Mon, 03 Sep 2018 08:24:59 GMT
Thanks for all the constructive discussions. I have a few thoughts on this
topic:

When we say we support a particular platform X, I suppose it means the
following processes in production:

1) Active developer support, the minimum of which is a clear instruction to
build from source on X.
2) Thorough test in each release/patch on X.
3) Continuous integration on X

It seems today we are missing all of them for Windows 7 (correct me if I am
wrong). I have found issues opened over 9 months ago #9271
<https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/9271> which fails simply
by importing mxnet and exiting on Windows 7. Thus, I am wondering how many
users are actually running MXNet on Windows 7 for meaningful work. How did
live by with such an obvious blocker.

If we do have a large active user base to support, we then should dedicate
resource to implement the above three items in order to claim that we
support Windows 7. After all, maybe we should change the thread topic to
"Should we start supporting Windows 7 again?" :)

I really appreciate your valuable comments. Have a great labor day weekend!

Lin


On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 12:37 PM Timur Shenkao <tsh@timshenkao.su> wrote:

> >> I also believe that it is possible to install more recent >> versions
of
> Visual Studio on Windows 7.
>
> It's about security reasons and AD permissions and bought licenses for VS,
> not about general technical impossibility of installation of up-to-date
> versions.
>
> On Sunday, September 2, 2018, Marco de Abreu
> <marco.g.abreu@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the data and these quite important points. I agree and hereby
> > change my vote to -1.
> >
> > Barber, Christopher <Christopher.Barber@analog.com> schrieb am So., 2.
> > Sep.
> > 2018, 18:56:
> >
> > > FWIW, my company is only beginning to transition to Windows 10 now, and
> > my
> > > past experience would lead me to believe that many enterprises stick
> with
> > > old versions of Windows long past when you think they would.
> > >
> > > Seems to me that if you are unwilling to deprecate python 2.7, then
> > > continuing to support Windows 7 is a no-brainer. You are more likely to
> > get
> > > users to switch to python 3 than you are to get them to install a new
> > > operating system.
> > >
> > > And do you really want to drop support for platforms that your
> > competitors
> > > still support? Given MXNet's market share, I wouldn't dream of
> dropping a
> > > platform until after the more popular frameworks have already done so.
> > >
> > > I also believe that it is possible to install more recent versions of
> > > Visual Studio on Windows 7.
> > >
> > > On 9/2/18, 1:57 AM, "kellen sunderland" <kellen.sunderland@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >     Google analytics are sadly probably the best numbers we're going to
> > > get.
> > >     Of course these numbers are likely to over-represent windows usage,
> > as
> > > I'm
> > >     sure many people are looking up documentation on a windows machine
> > > while
> > >     ssh'd into a cloud instance or IoT device.
> > >
> > >     What's the trend over time for these numbers Mu?  Is Windows 7
> usage
> > >     relatively stable over the last year?
> > >
> > >     On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 1:58 AM Mu Li <muli.cmu@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >     > According to google analytics, ~12% users who visited mxnet's
> > > website are
> > >     > using Windows 7. It's a significant number. Even though we cannot
> > > conclude
> > >     > that all of these users will run MXNet on Windows 7, I suggest we
> > > still
> > >     > support win7.
> > >     >
> > >     > BTW, anyone who can access mxnet's google analytics report can
> > > verify this
> > >     > number by following this instruction:
> > >     >
> > >     >
> > > https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1340778/detecting-
> > windows-7-with-google-analytics
> > >     >
> > >     >
> > >     >
> > >     > On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 1:55 PM Steffen Rochel <
> > > steffenrochel@gmail.com>
> > >     > wrote:
> > >     >
> > >     > > I support a data driven decision. Any suggestions how we can
> > obtain
> > >     > insight
> > >     > > about OS usage of the MXNet user community?
> > >     > > Can we get such information from pip install statistics or
> should
> > > we
> > >     > > perform a user poll on the discussion forum?
> > >     > > On the other hand the lack of data should not prevent us from
> > > moving
> > >     > > forward and dropping support for outdated OS.
> > >     > > In any case we would have to announce dropping a platform
> support
> > > at
> > >     > least
> > >     > > a release in advance.
> > >     > > Steffen
> > >     > >
> > >     > > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:21 PM Sheng Zha <
> zhasheng@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > >     > >
> > >     > > > Hi Kellen,
> > >     > > >
> > >     > > > Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I don't have
the
> > > usage data,
> > >     > > so
> > >     > > > I refrained from voting. If any of the voters have such
data
> > I'd
> > > love
> > >     > to
> > >     > > > see it too.
> > >     > > >
> > >     > > > -sz
> > >     > > >
> > >     > > > On 2018/08/30 14:58:09, kellen sunderland <
> > > kellen.sunderland@gmail.com
> > >     > >
> > >     > > > wrote:
> > >     > > > > I haven't spoken to anyone about the decision (as I'm
> > > currently on an
> > >     > > > > island in the med) but to me the quick +1s are likely
a
> > result
> > > of
> > >     > this
> > >     > > > > being a fairly straightforward decision.  The factors
that
> > > went into
> > >     > my
> > >     > > > > thinking were (1) prioritizing growing platforms rather
> than
> > >     > shrinking
> > >     > > > > platforms (i.e. thinking long term rather than shirt
term)
> > and
> > > (2)
> > >     > > > earning
> > >     > > > > our customers' trust.  Claiming support for a platform
when
> > we
> > > can't
> > >     > > > > realistically deliver it would lose us trust.  I'd
prefer
> to
> > > over
> > >     > > deliver
> > >     > > > > and under promise when it come to windows 7 for this
> reason.
> > >     > > > >
> > >     > > > > Now on the flip side one thing I would see as valuable
is
> to
> > > try and
> > >     > > get
> > >     > > > > windows builds working with clang.  This could be
> beneficial
> > > in the
> > >     > > sense
> > >     > > > > that it would be easy to maintain for mxnet devs and
allow
> us
> > > to use
> > >     > > > modern
> > >     > > > > cpp on older windows machines without using vs 2013(which
I
> > > consider
> > >     > a
> > >     > > > > non-starter with our codebase).
> > >     > > > >
> > >     > > > > You have peaked my curiousity though Sheng.  How many
win7
> > > users does
> > >     > > > MXNet
> > >     > > > > have relative to macos/Linux?
> > >     > > > >
> > >     > > > > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 8:51 AM Sheng Zha <
> szha.pvg@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >     > > > >
> > >     > > > > > Hi Yuan,
> > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > No problem. This is an issue that's worth having
a clear
> > >     > definition,
> > >     > > so
> > >     > > > > > there's nothing wrong about your proposal, and
thanks for
> > > bringing
> > >     > > > this up.
> > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > I'm more concerned about the seemingly unanimous
votes on
> > > dropping
> > >     > > > support
> > >     > > > > > on a platform without seeing the supporting evidence
that
> > > it's the
> > >     > > > right
> > >     > > > > > thing. It is as if everyone who participated in
the vote
> > are
> > >     > already
> > >     > > > on the
> > >     > > > > > same page, and somehow I'm the only one that's
not. But
> the
> > > only
> > >     > > > argument I
> > >     > > > > > hear so far is that it's technically not straightforward
> to
> > >     > continue
> > >     > > > the
> > >     > > > > > support, which, coming from Amazon folks, certainly
> doesn't
> > > sound
> > >     > > > > > customer-obsessed.
> > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > -sz
> > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:37 PM Lin Yuan <
> > > apeforest@gmail.com>
> > >     > > wrote:
> > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > Hi Sheng,
> > >     > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > Thanks for raising this concern. The problem
now is
> that
> > we
> > >     > cannot
> > >     > > > even
> > >     > > > > > > build MXNet on Windows 7 because the build
process
> > > requires MS VS
> > >     > > > 2015 w/
> > >     > > > > > > update 3 which is incompatible on Windows
7. This
> leaves
> > > many
> > >     > > > Windows 7
> > >     > > > > > > related open issues on github without any
timely
> > response.
> > > In my
> > >     > > > opinion,
> > >     > > > > > > having no response to users' request is probably
even
> > > worse than
> > >     > > > letting
> > >     > > > > > > them know the limitation of OS support.
> > >     > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > To minimize the impact to current Windows
7 users, we
> can
> > > provide
> > >     > > > PyPi
> > >     > > > > > > package for Windows 7 in this release but
defer the bug
> > > fix and
> > >     > > > feature
> > >     > > > > > > enhancement to later Windows OS version.
Based on
> users'
> > >     > feedbacks,
> > >     > > > we
> > >     > > > > > can
> > >     > > > > > > then officially discontinue the Windows 7
support in
> the
> > > next
> > >     > MXNet
> > >     > > > > > > release.
> > >     > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > I will appreciate your comments.
> > >     > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > Lin
> > >     > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:37 PM Sheng Zha
<
> > > szha.pvg@gmail.com>
> > >     > > > wrote:
> > >     > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > Are any of the votes based on any measure
of user
> > > impact, if we
> > >     > > > indeed
> > >     > > > > > > > decide not to fix the current problems?
> > >     > > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > -sz
> > >     > > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:29 PM Hagay
Lupesko <
> > >     > lupesko@gmail.com
> > >     > > >
> > >     > > > > > wrote:
> > >     > > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > +1 (non-binding)
> > >     > > > > > > > > Thanks for raising this Lin!
> > >     > > > > > > > > Are you suggesting to do it as
part of MXNet 1.3?
> > >     > > > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:14 AM
Srivastava, Rohit
> > > Kumar <
> > >     > > > > > > > > srivastava.141@buckeyemail.osu.edu>
wrote:
> > >     > > > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > > +1
> > >     > > > > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > > On 8/29/18, 8:39 AM, "sandeep
krishnamurthy" <
> > >     > > > > > > > > sandeep.krishna98@gmail.com>
> > >     > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >     > > > > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     +1 Thanks for bringing
this up.
> > >     > > > > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at
6:38 AM Marco de
> Abreu
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     <marco.g.abreu@googlemail.com.invalid>
> wrote:
> > >     > > > > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > +1
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018
at 1:08 PM kellen
> > > sunderland <
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > kellen.sunderland@gmail.com>
wrote:
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > +1 (non-binding)
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > On Wed, Aug
29, 2018, 1:18 AM Anirudh
> > > Acharya <
> > >     > > > > > > > > > anirudhkrec@gmail.com>
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > wrote:
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > +1 for
discontinuing.
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > On Tue,
Aug 28, 2018 at 4:11 PM Naveen
> > > Swamy <
> > >     > > > > > > > > mnnaveen@gmail.com
> > >     > > > > > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > wrote:
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > +1
to stop supporting Win7
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > On
Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 3:54 PM Lin
> > Yuan
> > > <
> > >     > > > > > > > > apeforest@gmail.com>
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > wrote:
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
Dear Community,
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
Currently, our MXNet installation
> > > guide for
> > >     > > > Windows
> > >     > > > > > > does
> > >     > > > > > > > > not
> > >     > > > > > > > > > work
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > for
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
Windows 7. e.g. Microsoft Visual
> > > Studio 2015
> > >     > is
> > >     > > > not
> > >     > > > > > > > > > supported on
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > Windows
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > 7
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
<
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > >
> > >     > >
> > >     >
> > > https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/support/vs2015/received-error-
> > specified-program-requires-newer-version-windows/
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
>.
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
In addition, MSFT ended
> “Mainstream”
> > > support
> > >     > > for
> > >     > > > > > > Windows
> > >     > > > > > > > 7
> > >     > > > > > > > > > in 2015
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > (
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > >
> > >     > >
> > >     >
> > > https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-
> > lifecycle-fact-sheet
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
).
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
Therefore, it is not possible for
> > > developers
> > >     > to
> > >     > > > build
> > >     > > > > > > > MXNet
> > >     > > > > > > > > > and
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > verify
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > the
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
fix on Windows 7 platform. Given
> that
> > > there
> > >     > > have
> > >     > > > been
> > >     > > > > > > > > several
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > issues
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > about
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
MXNet error on Windows 7
> (issue#9271
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
<
> > >     > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/9271
> > >     > > > > > > >,
> > >     > > > > > > > > > issue
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > #8921
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
<
> > >     > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/8921
> > >     > > > > > > >,
> > >     > > > > > > > > > issue
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > #11163
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
<
> > >     > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/11163
> > >     > > > > > > > >),
> > >     > > > > > > > > > it will
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > even
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
add
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
more burden on developers in the
> > > future if we
> > >     > > > were to
> > >     > > > > > > > > > continue
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > supporting
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
Windows 7.
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
I therefore would like to propose
> > that
> > > we
> > >     > > > discontinue
> > >     > > > > > > the
> > >     > > > > > > > > > support
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > of
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > MXNet
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
on Windows 7 in the next release.
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
Specifically, this means the
> > following
> > >     > required
> > >     > > > > > > actions:
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
1) state the discontinuation of
> > > Windows 7
> > >     > > > support in
> > >     > > > > > > the
> > >     > > > > > > > > > release
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > note
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
2) update the MXNet webpage if
> > Windows
> > >     > version
> > >     > > is
> > >     > > > > > > > > mentioned.
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
3) update the open Github issues
> > > related to
> > >     > > > Windows 7
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
Please share your thoughts about
> this
> > >     > proposal
> > >     > > > and/or
> > >     > > > > > > > > > suggest if
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > there
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > is
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
any other missing action item from
> > the
> > > above.
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
Best Regards,
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
Lin
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     --
> > >     > > > > > > > > >     Sandeep Krishnamurthy
> > >     > > > > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > > >
> > >     > > > > >
> > >     > > > >
> > >     > > >
> > >     > >
> > >     >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

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