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From shiwen hu <yajiedes...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7
Date Mon, 03 Sep 2018 11:43:54 GMT
At present, all precompiled packages are win10-compiled.
There are no large-scale reports that can no run win7.
Therefore, there is no problem for all precompiled package users to stop or
continue supporting.

Timur Shenkao <tsh@timshenkao.su> 于2018年9月3日周一 下午5:14写道:

> Users live like you described: install mxnet, then import fails, switch to
> TF or Pytorch and forget mxnet forever.
>
> Only very stubborn users spend time in loop: compiling / building wheel /
> conda package on external machine, copy to destination machine, fail with
> some dependency error, etc. Until patience is lost or something workable is
> created.
>
> On Monday, September 3, 2018, Lin Yuan <apeforest@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for all the constructive discussions. I have a few thoughts on
> this
> > topic:
> >
> > When we say we support a particular platform X, I suppose it means the
> > following processes in production:
> >
> > 1) Active developer support, the minimum of which is a clear instruction
> to
> > build from source on X.
> > 2) Thorough test in each release/patch on X.
> > 3) Continuous integration on X
> >
> > It seems today we are missing all of them for Windows 7 (correct me if I
> am
> > wrong). I have found issues opened over 9 months ago #9271
> > <https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/9271> which fails
> simply
> > by importing mxnet and exiting on Windows 7. Thus, I am wondering how
> many
> > users are actually running MXNet on Windows 7 for meaningful work. How
> did
> > live by with such an obvious blocker.
> >
> > If we do have a large active user base to support, we then should
> dedicate
> > resource to implement the above three items in order to claim that we
> > support Windows 7. After all, maybe we should change the thread topic to
> > "Should we start supporting Windows 7 again?" :)
> >
> > I really appreciate your valuable comments. Have a great labor day
> weekend!
> >
> > Lin
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 12:37 PM Timur Shenkao <tsh@timshenkao.su> wrote:
> >
> > > >> I also believe that it is possible to install more recent >>
> versions
> > of
> > > Visual Studio on Windows 7.
> > >
> > > It's about security reasons and AD permissions and bought licenses for
> > VS,
> > > not about general technical impossibility of installation of up-to-date
> > > versions.
> > >
> > > On Sunday, September 2, 2018, Marco de Abreu
> > > <marco.g.abreu@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thanks for the data and these quite important points. I agree and
> > hereby
> > > > change my vote to -1.
> > > >
> > > > Barber, Christopher <Christopher.Barber@analog.com> schrieb am So.,
> 2.
> > > > Sep.
> > > > 2018, 18:56:
> > > >
> > > > > FWIW, my company is only beginning to transition to Windows 10 now,
> > and
> > > > my
> > > > > past experience would lead me to believe that many enterprises
> stick
> > > with
> > > > > old versions of Windows long past when you think they would.
> > > > >
> > > > > Seems to me that if you are unwilling to deprecate python 2.7, then
> > > > > continuing to support Windows 7 is a no-brainer. You are more
> likely
> > to
> > > > get
> > > > > users to switch to python 3 than you are to get them to install a
> new
> > > > > operating system.
> > > > >
> > > > > And do you really want to drop support for platforms that your
> > > > competitors
> > > > > still support? Given MXNet's market share, I wouldn't dream of
> > > dropping a
> > > > > platform until after the more popular frameworks have already done
> > so.
> > > > >
> > > > > I also believe that it is possible to install more recent versions
> of
> > > > > Visual Studio on Windows 7.
> > > > >
> > > > > On 9/2/18, 1:57 AM, "kellen sunderland" <
> > kellen.sunderland@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >     Google analytics are sadly probably the best numbers we're
> going
> > to
> > > > > get.
> > > > >     Of course these numbers are likely to over-represent windows
> > usage,
> > > > as
> > > > > I'm
> > > > >     sure many people are looking up documentation on a windows
> > machine
> > > > > while
> > > > >     ssh'd into a cloud instance or IoT device.
> > > > >
> > > > >     What's the trend over time for these numbers Mu?  Is Windows
7
> > > usage
> > > > >     relatively stable over the last year?
> > > > >
> > > > >     On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 1:58 AM Mu Li <muli.cmu@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >     > According to google analytics, ~12% users who visited mxnet's
> > > > > website are
> > > > >     > using Windows 7. It's a significant number. Even though
we
> > cannot
> > > > > conclude
> > > > >     > that all of these users will run MXNet on Windows 7, I
> suggest
> > we
> > > > > still
> > > > >     > support win7.
> > > > >     >
> > > > >     > BTW, anyone who can access mxnet's google analytics report
> can
> > > > > verify this
> > > > >     > number by following this instruction:
> > > > >     >
> > > > >     >
> > > > > https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1340778/detecting-
> > > > windows-7-with-google-analytics
> > > > >     >
> > > > >     >
> > > > >     >
> > > > >     > On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 1:55 PM Steffen Rochel <
> > > > > steffenrochel@gmail.com>
> > > > >     > wrote:
> > > > >     >
> > > > >     > > I support a data driven decision. Any suggestions how
we
> can
> > > > obtain
> > > > >     > insight
> > > > >     > > about OS usage of the MXNet user community?
> > > > >     > > Can we get such information from pip install statistics
or
> > > should
> > > > > we
> > > > >     > > perform a user poll on the discussion forum?
> > > > >     > > On the other hand the lack of data should not prevent
us
> from
> > > > > moving
> > > > >     > > forward and dropping support for outdated OS.
> > > > >     > > In any case we would have to announce dropping a platform
> > > support
> > > > > at
> > > > >     > least
> > > > >     > > a release in advance.
> > > > >     > > Steffen
> > > > >     > >
> > > > >     > > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:21 PM Sheng Zha <
> > > zhasheng@apache.org>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >     > >
> > > > >     > > > Hi Kellen,
> > > > >     > > >
> > > > >     > > > Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I don't
have
> the
> > > > > usage data,
> > > > >     > > so
> > > > >     > > > I refrained from voting. If any of the voters
have such
> > data
> > > > I'd
> > > > > love
> > > > >     > to
> > > > >     > > > see it too.
> > > > >     > > >
> > > > >     > > > -sz
> > > > >     > > >
> > > > >     > > > On 2018/08/30 14:58:09, kellen sunderland <
> > > > > kellen.sunderland@gmail.com
> > > > >     > >
> > > > >     > > > wrote:
> > > > >     > > > > I haven't spoken to anyone about the decision
(as I'm
> > > > > currently on an
> > > > >     > > > > island in the med) but to me the quick +1s
are likely a
> > > > result
> > > > > of
> > > > >     > this
> > > > >     > > > > being a fairly straightforward decision.
 The factors
> > that
> > > > > went into
> > > > >     > my
> > > > >     > > > > thinking were (1) prioritizing growing platforms
rather
> > > than
> > > > >     > shrinking
> > > > >     > > > > platforms (i.e. thinking long term rather
than shirt
> > term)
> > > > and
> > > > > (2)
> > > > >     > > > earning
> > > > >     > > > > our customers' trust.  Claiming support for
a platform
> > when
> > > > we
> > > > > can't
> > > > >     > > > > realistically deliver it would lose us trust.
 I'd
> prefer
> > > to
> > > > > over
> > > > >     > > deliver
> > > > >     > > > > and under promise when it come to windows
7 for this
> > > reason.
> > > > >     > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > Now on the flip side one thing I would see
as valuable
> is
> > > to
> > > > > try and
> > > > >     > > get
> > > > >     > > > > windows builds working with clang.  This
could be
> > > beneficial
> > > > > in the
> > > > >     > > sense
> > > > >     > > > > that it would be easy to maintain for mxnet
devs and
> > allow
> > > us
> > > > > to use
> > > > >     > > > modern
> > > > >     > > > > cpp on older windows machines without using
vs
> > 2013(which I
> > > > > consider
> > > > >     > a
> > > > >     > > > > non-starter with our codebase).
> > > > >     > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > You have peaked my curiousity though Sheng.
 How many
> > win7
> > > > > users does
> > > > >     > > > MXNet
> > > > >     > > > > have relative to macos/Linux?
> > > > >     > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 8:51 AM Sheng Zha <
> > > szha.pvg@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >     > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > Hi Yuan,
> > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > No problem. This is an issue that's
worth having a
> > clear
> > > > >     > definition,
> > > > >     > > so
> > > > >     > > > > > there's nothing wrong about your proposal,
and thanks
> > for
> > > > > bringing
> > > > >     > > > this up.
> > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > I'm more concerned about the seemingly
unanimous
> votes
> > on
> > > > > dropping
> > > > >     > > > support
> > > > >     > > > > > on a platform without seeing the supporting
evidence
> > that
> > > > > it's the
> > > > >     > > > right
> > > > >     > > > > > thing. It is as if everyone who participated
in the
> > vote
> > > > are
> > > > >     > already
> > > > >     > > > on the
> > > > >     > > > > > same page, and somehow I'm the only
one that's not.
> But
> > > the
> > > > > only
> > > > >     > > > argument I
> > > > >     > > > > > hear so far is that it's technically
not
> > straightforward
> > > to
> > > > >     > continue
> > > > >     > > > the
> > > > >     > > > > > support, which, coming from Amazon folks,
certainly
> > > doesn't
> > > > > sound
> > > > >     > > > > > customer-obsessed.
> > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > -sz
> > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:37 PM Lin
Yuan <
> > > > > apeforest@gmail.com>
> > > > >     > > wrote:
> > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > Hi Sheng,
> > > > >     > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > Thanks for raising this concern.
The problem now is
> > > that
> > > > we
> > > > >     > cannot
> > > > >     > > > even
> > > > >     > > > > > > build MXNet on Windows 7 because
the build process
> > > > > requires MS VS
> > > > >     > > > 2015 w/
> > > > >     > > > > > > update 3 which is incompatible
on Windows 7. This
> > > leaves
> > > > > many
> > > > >     > > > Windows 7
> > > > >     > > > > > > related open issues on github without
any timely
> > > > response.
> > > > > In my
> > > > >     > > > opinion,
> > > > >     > > > > > > having no response to users' request
is probably
> even
> > > > > worse than
> > > > >     > > > letting
> > > > >     > > > > > > them know the limitation of OS
support.
> > > > >     > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > To minimize the impact to current
Windows 7 users,
> we
> > > can
> > > > > provide
> > > > >     > > > PyPi
> > > > >     > > > > > > package for Windows 7 in this release
but defer the
> > bug
> > > > > fix and
> > > > >     > > > feature
> > > > >     > > > > > > enhancement to later Windows OS
version. Based on
> > > users'
> > > > >     > feedbacks,
> > > > >     > > > we
> > > > >     > > > > > can
> > > > >     > > > > > > then officially discontinue the
Windows 7 support
> in
> > > the
> > > > > next
> > > > >     > MXNet
> > > > >     > > > > > > release.
> > > > >     > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > I will appreciate your comments.
> > > > >     > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > Lin
> > > > >     > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:37 PM
Sheng Zha <
> > > > > szha.pvg@gmail.com>
> > > > >     > > > wrote:
> > > > >     > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > Are any of the votes based
on any measure of user
> > > > > impact, if we
> > > > >     > > > indeed
> > > > >     > > > > > > > decide not to fix the current
problems?
> > > > >     > > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > -sz
> > > > >     > > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:29
PM Hagay Lupesko <
> > > > >     > lupesko@gmail.com
> > > > >     > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > wrote:
> > > > >     > > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > +1 (non-binding)
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > Thanks for raising this
Lin!
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > Are you suggesting to
do it as part of MXNet
> 1.3?
> > > > >     > > > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018
at 9:14 AM Srivastava,
> Rohit
> > > > > Kumar <
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > srivastava.141@buckeyemail.osu.edu>
wrote:
> > > > >     > > > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > > +1
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > > On 8/29/18, 8:39
AM, "sandeep krishnamurthy"
> <
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > sandeep.krishna98@gmail.com>
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     +1 Thanks for
bringing this up.
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     On Wed, Aug
29, 2018 at 6:38 AM Marco de
> > > Abreu
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     <marco.g.abreu@googlemail.com.invalid>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > +1
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > On Wed,
Aug 29, 2018 at 1:08 PM kellen
> > > > > sunderland <
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > kellen.sunderland@gmail.com>
wrote:
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > +1
(non-binding)
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > On
Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 1:18 AM Anirudh
> > > > > Acharya <
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > > anirudhkrec@gmail.com>
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > wrote:
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
+1 for discontinuing.
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 4:11 PM
> > Naveen
> > > > > Swamy <
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > mnnaveen@gmail.com
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > wrote:
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> +1 to stop supporting Win7
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
>
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 3:54 PM
> Lin
> > > > Yuan
> > > > > <
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > apeforest@gmail.com>
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > wrote:
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
>
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > Dear Community,
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > Currently, our MXNet
> installation
> > > > > guide for
> > > > >     > > > Windows
> > > > >     > > > > > > does
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > not
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > > work
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > for
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > Windows 7. e.g. Microsoft
> Visual
> > > > > Studio 2015
> > > > >     > is
> > > > >     > > > not
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > > supported on
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
Windows
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> 7
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > <
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
>
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > >     > > >
> > > > >     > >
> > > > >     >
> > > > >
> https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/support/vs2015/received-error-
> > > > specified-program-requires-newer-version-windows/
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > >.
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > In addition, MSFT ended
> > > “Mainstream”
> > > > > support
> > > > >     > > for
> > > > >     > > > > > > Windows
> > > > >     > > > > > > > 7
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > > in 2015
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > (
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
>
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > >     > > >
> > > > >     > >
> > > > >     >
> > > > > https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-
> > > > lifecycle-fact-sheet
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > ).
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > Therefore, it is not possible
> for
> > > > > developers
> > > > >     > to
> > > > >     > > > build
> > > > >     > > > > > > > MXNet
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > verify
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> the
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > fix on Windows 7 platform.
> Given
> > > that
> > > > > there
> > > > >     > > have
> > > > >     > > > been
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > several
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > issues
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> about
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > MXNet error on Windows 7
> > > (issue#9271
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > <
> > > > >     > > > > >
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/9271
> > > > >     > > > > > > >,
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > #8921
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > <
> > > > >     > > > > >
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/8921
> > > > >     > > > > > > >,
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > #11163
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > <
> > > > >     > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/
> > incubator-mxnet/issues/11163
> > > > >     > > > > > > > >),
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > > it will
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
even
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > add
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > more burden on developers in
> the
> > > > > future if we
> > > > >     > > > were to
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > > continue
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
supporting
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > Windows 7.
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > I therefore would like to
> propose
> > > > that
> > > > > we
> > > > >     > > > discontinue
> > > > >     > > > > > > the
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > > support
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > of
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> MXNet
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > on Windows 7 in the next
> release.
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > Specifically, this means the
> > > > following
> > > > >     > required
> > > > >     > > > > > > actions:
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > 1) state the discontinuation of
> > > > > Windows 7
> > > > >     > > > support in
> > > > >     > > > > > > the
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > > release
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > note
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > 2) update the MXNet webpage if
> > > > Windows
> > > > >     > version
> > > > >     > > is
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > mentioned.
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > 3) update the open Github
> issues
> > > > > related to
> > > > >     > > > Windows 7
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > Please share your thoughts
> about
> > > this
> > > > >     > proposal
> > > > >     > > > and/or
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > > suggest if
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > there
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
is
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > any other missing action item
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > > above.
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > Best Regards,
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > Lin
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
>
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     --
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >     Sandeep Krishnamurthy
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > >     > > > >
> > > > >     > > >
> > > > >     > >
> > > > >     >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Mime
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