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From "Barber, Christopher" <Christopher.Bar...@analog.com>
Subject Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7
Date Sun, 02 Sep 2018 16:56:30 GMT
FWIW, my company is only beginning to transition to Windows 10 now, and my past experience
would lead me to believe that many enterprises stick with old versions of Windows long past
when you think they would.

Seems to me that if you are unwilling to deprecate python 2.7, then continuing to support
Windows 7 is a no-brainer. You are more likely to get users to switch to python 3 than you
are to get them to install a new operating system.

And do you really want to drop support for platforms that your competitors still support?
Given MXNet's market share, I wouldn't dream of dropping a platform until after the more popular
frameworks have already done so.

I also believe that it is possible to install more recent versions of Visual Studio on Windows
7. 

On 9/2/18, 1:57 AM, "kellen sunderland" <kellen.sunderland@gmail.com> wrote:

    Google analytics are sadly probably the best numbers we're going to get.
    Of course these numbers are likely to over-represent windows usage, as I'm
    sure many people are looking up documentation on a windows machine while
    ssh'd into a cloud instance or IoT device.
    
    What's the trend over time for these numbers Mu?  Is Windows 7 usage
    relatively stable over the last year?
    
    On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 1:58 AM Mu Li <muli.cmu@gmail.com> wrote:
    
    > According to google analytics, ~12% users who visited mxnet's website are
    > using Windows 7. It's a significant number. Even though we cannot conclude
    > that all of these users will run MXNet on Windows 7, I suggest we still
    > support win7.
    >
    > BTW, anyone who can access mxnet's google analytics report can verify this
    > number by following this instruction:
    >
    > https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1340778/detecting-windows-7-with-google-analytics
    >
    >
    >
    > On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 1:55 PM Steffen Rochel <steffenrochel@gmail.com>
    > wrote:
    >
    > > I support a data driven decision. Any suggestions how we can obtain
    > insight
    > > about OS usage of the MXNet user community?
    > > Can we get such information from pip install statistics or should we
    > > perform a user poll on the discussion forum?
    > > On the other hand the lack of data should not prevent us from moving
    > > forward and dropping support for outdated OS.
    > > In any case we would have to announce dropping a platform support at
    > least
    > > a release in advance.
    > > Steffen
    > >
    > > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:21 PM Sheng Zha <zhasheng@apache.org> wrote:
    > >
    > > > Hi Kellen,
    > > >
    > > > Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I don't have the usage data,
    > > so
    > > > I refrained from voting. If any of the voters have such data I'd love
    > to
    > > > see it too.
    > > >
    > > > -sz
    > > >
    > > > On 2018/08/30 14:58:09, kellen sunderland <kellen.sunderland@gmail.com
    > >
    > > > wrote:
    > > > > I haven't spoken to anyone about the decision (as I'm currently on
an
    > > > > island in the med) but to me the quick +1s are likely a result of
    > this
    > > > > being a fairly straightforward decision.  The factors that went into
    > my
    > > > > thinking were (1) prioritizing growing platforms rather than
    > shrinking
    > > > > platforms (i.e. thinking long term rather than shirt term) and (2)
    > > > earning
    > > > > our customers' trust.  Claiming support for a platform when we can't
    > > > > realistically deliver it would lose us trust.  I'd prefer to over
    > > deliver
    > > > > and under promise when it come to windows 7 for this reason.
    > > > >
    > > > > Now on the flip side one thing I would see as valuable is to try and
    > > get
    > > > > windows builds working with clang.  This could be beneficial in the
    > > sense
    > > > > that it would be easy to maintain for mxnet devs and allow us to use
    > > > modern
    > > > > cpp on older windows machines without using vs 2013(which I consider
    > a
    > > > > non-starter with our codebase).
    > > > >
    > > > > You have peaked my curiousity though Sheng.  How many win7 users does
    > > > MXNet
    > > > > have relative to macos/Linux?
    > > > >
    > > > > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 8:51 AM Sheng Zha <szha.pvg@gmail.com>
wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > > Hi Yuan,
    > > > > >
    > > > > > No problem. This is an issue that's worth having a clear
    > definition,
    > > so
    > > > > > there's nothing wrong about your proposal, and thanks for bringing
    > > > this up.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > I'm more concerned about the seemingly unanimous votes on dropping
    > > > support
    > > > > > on a platform without seeing the supporting evidence that it's
the
    > > > right
    > > > > > thing. It is as if everyone who participated in the vote are
    > already
    > > > on the
    > > > > > same page, and somehow I'm the only one that's not. But the only
    > > > argument I
    > > > > > hear so far is that it's technically not straightforward to
    > continue
    > > > the
    > > > > > support, which, coming from Amazon folks, certainly doesn't sound
    > > > > > customer-obsessed.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > -sz
    > > > > >
    > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:37 PM Lin Yuan <apeforest@gmail.com>
    > > wrote:
    > > > > >
    > > > > > > Hi Sheng,
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Thanks for raising this concern. The problem now is that
we
    > cannot
    > > > even
    > > > > > > build MXNet on Windows 7 because the build process requires
MS VS
    > > > 2015 w/
    > > > > > > update 3 which is incompatible on Windows 7. This leaves
many
    > > > Windows 7
    > > > > > > related open issues on github without any timely response.
In my
    > > > opinion,
    > > > > > > having no response to users' request is probably even worse
than
    > > > letting
    > > > > > > them know the limitation of OS support.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > To minimize the impact to current Windows 7 users, we can
provide
    > > > PyPi
    > > > > > > package for Windows 7 in this release but defer the bug
fix and
    > > > feature
    > > > > > > enhancement to later Windows OS version. Based on users'
    > feedbacks,
    > > > we
    > > > > > can
    > > > > > > then officially discontinue the Windows 7 support in the
next
    > MXNet
    > > > > > > release.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > I will appreciate your comments.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Lin
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:37 PM Sheng Zha <szha.pvg@gmail.com>
    > > > wrote:
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > Are any of the votes based on any measure of user impact,
if we
    > > > indeed
    > > > > > > > decide not to fix the current problems?
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > -sz
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:29 PM Hagay Lupesko <
    > lupesko@gmail.com
    > > >
    > > > > > wrote:
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > +1 (non-binding)
    > > > > > > > > Thanks for raising this Lin!
    > > > > > > > > Are you suggesting to do it as part of MXNet 1.3?
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:14 AM Srivastava, Rohit
Kumar <
    > > > > > > > > srivastava.141@buckeyemail.osu.edu> wrote:
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > > +1
    > > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > > On 8/29/18, 8:39 AM, "sandeep krishnamurthy"
<
    > > > > > > > > sandeep.krishna98@gmail.com>
    > > > > > > > > > wrote:
    > > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     +1 Thanks for bringing this up.
    > > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 6:38 AM Marco
de Abreu
    > > > > > > > > >     <marco.g.abreu@googlemail.com.invalid>
wrote:
    > > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > +1
    > > > > > > > > >     >
    > > > > > > > > >     > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:08 PM
kellen sunderland <
    > > > > > > > > >     > kellen.sunderland@gmail.com>
wrote:
    > > > > > > > > >     >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > +1 (non-binding)
    > > > > > > > > >     > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 1:18
AM Anirudh Acharya <
    > > > > > > > > > anirudhkrec@gmail.com>
    > > > > > > > > >     > > wrote:
    > > > > > > > > >     > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > +1 for discontinuing.
    > > > > > > > > >     > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at
4:11 PM Naveen Swamy <
    > > > > > > > > mnnaveen@gmail.com
    > > > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > wrote:
    > > > > > > > > >     > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > +1 to stop supporting
Win7
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018
at 3:54 PM Lin Yuan <
    > > > > > > > > apeforest@gmail.com>
    > > > > > > > > >     > wrote:
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Dear Community,
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Currently, our
MXNet installation guide for
    > > > Windows
    > > > > > > does
    > > > > > > > > not
    > > > > > > > > > work
    > > > > > > > > >     > for
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Windows 7. e.g.
Microsoft Visual Studio 2015
    > is
    > > > not
    > > > > > > > > > supported on
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > Windows
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > 7
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > <
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > >
    > > > > > > > > >     >
    > > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > >
    > >
    > https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/support/vs2015/received-error-specified-program-requires-newer-version-windows/
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > >.
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > In addition,
MSFT ended “Mainstream” support
    > > for
    > > > > > > Windows
    > > > > > > > 7
    > > > > > > > > > in 2015
    > > > > > > > > >     > (
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > >
    > > > > > > > > >     >
    > > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > >
    > >
    > https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > ).
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Therefore, it
is not possible for developers
    > to
    > > > build
    > > > > > > > MXNet
    > > > > > > > > > and
    > > > > > > > > >     > > verify
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > the
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > fix on Windows
7 platform. Given that there
    > > have
    > > > been
    > > > > > > > > several
    > > > > > > > > >     > issues
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > about
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > MXNet error
on Windows 7 (issue#9271
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > <
    > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/9271
    > > > > > > >,
    > > > > > > > > > issue
    > > > > > > > > >     > #8921
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > <
    > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/8921
    > > > > > > >,
    > > > > > > > > > issue
    > > > > > > > > >     > > #11163
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > <
    > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/11163
    > > > > > > > >),
    > > > > > > > > > it will
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > even
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > add
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > more burden
on developers in the future if we
    > > > were to
    > > > > > > > > > continue
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > supporting
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Windows 7.
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > I therefore
would like to propose that we
    > > > discontinue
    > > > > > > the
    > > > > > > > > > support
    > > > > > > > > >     > of
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > MXNet
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > on Windows 7
in the next release.
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Specifically,
this means the following
    > required
    > > > > > > actions:
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > 1) state the
discontinuation of Windows 7
    > > > support in
    > > > > > > the
    > > > > > > > > > release
    > > > > > > > > >     > note
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > 2) update the
MXNet webpage if Windows
    > version
    > > is
    > > > > > > > > mentioned.
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > 3) update the
open Github issues related to
    > > > Windows 7
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Please share
your thoughts about this
    > proposal
    > > > and/or
    > > > > > > > > > suggest if
    > > > > > > > > >     > > there
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > is
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > any other missing
action item from the above.
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Best Regards,
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > Lin
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     > >
    > > > > > > > > >     >
    > > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >     --
    > > > > > > > > >     Sandeep Krishnamurthy
    > > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > >
    > > >
    > >
    >
    

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