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From Sheng Zha <zhash...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7
Date Thu, 30 Aug 2018 19:21:11 GMT
Hi Kellen,

Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I don't have the usage data, so I refrained from
voting. If any of the voters have such data I'd love to see it too.

-sz

On 2018/08/30 14:58:09, kellen sunderland <kellen.sunderland@gmail.com> wrote: 
> I haven't spoken to anyone about the decision (as I'm currently on an
> island in the med) but to me the quick +1s are likely a result of this
> being a fairly straightforward decision.  The factors that went into my
> thinking were (1) prioritizing growing platforms rather than shrinking
> platforms (i.e. thinking long term rather than shirt term) and (2)  earning
> our customers' trust.  Claiming support for a platform when we can't
> realistically deliver it would lose us trust.  I'd prefer to over deliver
> and under promise when it come to windows 7 for this reason.
> 
> Now on the flip side one thing I would see as valuable is to try and get
> windows builds working with clang.  This could be beneficial in the sense
> that it would be easy to maintain for mxnet devs and allow us to use modern
> cpp on older windows machines without using vs 2013(which I consider a
> non-starter with our codebase).
> 
> You have peaked my curiousity though Sheng.  How many win7 users does MXNet
> have relative to macos/Linux?
> 
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 8:51 AM Sheng Zha <szha.pvg@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Yuan,
> >
> > No problem. This is an issue that's worth having a clear definition, so
> > there's nothing wrong about your proposal, and thanks for bringing this up.
> >
> > I'm more concerned about the seemingly unanimous votes on dropping support
> > on a platform without seeing the supporting evidence that it's the right
> > thing. It is as if everyone who participated in the vote are already on the
> > same page, and somehow I'm the only one that's not. But the only argument I
> > hear so far is that it's technically not straightforward to continue the
> > support, which, coming from Amazon folks, certainly doesn't sound
> > customer-obsessed.
> >
> > -sz
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:37 PM Lin Yuan <apeforest@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Sheng,
> > >
> > > Thanks for raising this concern. The problem now is that we cannot even
> > > build MXNet on Windows 7 because the build process requires MS VS 2015 w/
> > > update 3 which is incompatible on Windows 7. This leaves many Windows 7
> > > related open issues on github without any timely response. In my opinion,
> > > having no response to users' request is probably even worse than letting
> > > them know the limitation of OS support.
> > >
> > > To minimize the impact to current Windows 7 users, we can provide PyPi
> > > package for Windows 7 in this release but defer the bug fix and feature
> > > enhancement to later Windows OS version. Based on users' feedbacks, we
> > can
> > > then officially discontinue the Windows 7 support in the next MXNet
> > > release.
> > >
> > > I will appreciate your comments.
> > >
> > > Lin
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:37 PM Sheng Zha <szha.pvg@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Are any of the votes based on any measure of user impact, if we indeed
> > > > decide not to fix the current problems?
> > > >
> > > > -sz
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:29 PM Hagay Lupesko <lupesko@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > +1 (non-binding)
> > > > > Thanks for raising this Lin!
> > > > > Are you suggesting to do it as part of MXNet 1.3?
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:14 AM Srivastava, Rohit Kumar <
> > > > > srivastava.141@buckeyemail.osu.edu> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > +1
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 8/29/18, 8:39 AM, "sandeep krishnamurthy" <
> > > > > sandeep.krishna98@gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >     +1 Thanks for bringing this up.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >     On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 6:38 AM Marco de Abreu
> > > > > >     <marco.g.abreu@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >     > +1
> > > > > >     >
> > > > > >     > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:08 PM kellen sunderland <
> > > > > >     > kellen.sunderland@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >     >
> > > > > >     > > +1 (non-binding)
> > > > > >     > >
> > > > > >     > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 1:18 AM Anirudh Acharya
<
> > > > > > anirudhkrec@gmail.com>
> > > > > >     > > wrote:
> > > > > >     > >
> > > > > >     > > > +1 for discontinuing.
> > > > > >     > > >
> > > > > >     > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 4:11 PM Naveen Swamy
<
> > > > > mnnaveen@gmail.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >     > wrote:
> > > > > >     > > >
> > > > > >     > > > > +1 to stop supporting Win7
> > > > > >     > > > >
> > > > > >     > > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 3:54 PM Lin
Yuan <
> > > > > apeforest@gmail.com>
> > > > > >     > wrote:
> > > > > >     > > > >
> > > > > >     > > > > > Dear Community,
> > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > >     > > > > > Currently, our MXNet installation
guide for Windows
> > > does
> > > > > not
> > > > > > work
> > > > > >     > for
> > > > > >     > > > > > Windows 7. e.g. Microsoft Visual
Studio 2015 is not
> > > > > > supported on
> > > > > >     > > > Windows
> > > > > >     > > > > 7
> > > > > >     > > > > > <
> > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > >     > > > >
> > > > > >     > > >
> > > > > >     > >
> > > > > >     >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/support/vs2015/received-error-specified-program-requires-newer-version-windows/
> > > > > >     > > > > > >.
> > > > > >     > > > > > In addition, MSFT ended “Mainstream”
support for
> > > Windows
> > > > 7
> > > > > > in 2015
> > > > > >     > (
> > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > >     > > > >
> > > > > >     > > >
> > > > > >     > >
> > > > > >     >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet
> > > > > >     > > > > > ).
> > > > > >     > > > > > Therefore, it is not possible for
developers to build
> > > > MXNet
> > > > > > and
> > > > > >     > > verify
> > > > > >     > > > > the
> > > > > >     > > > > > fix on Windows 7 platform. Given
that there have been
> > > > > several
> > > > > >     > issues
> > > > > >     > > > > about
> > > > > >     > > > > > MXNet error on Windows 7 (issue#9271
> > > > > >     > > > > > <
> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/9271
> > > >,
> > > > > > issue
> > > > > >     > #8921
> > > > > >     > > > > > <
> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/8921
> > > >,
> > > > > > issue
> > > > > >     > > #11163
> > > > > >     > > > > > <
> > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/issues/11163
> > > > >),
> > > > > > it will
> > > > > >     > > > even
> > > > > >     > > > > > add
> > > > > >     > > > > > more burden on developers in the
future if we were to
> > > > > > continue
> > > > > >     > > > supporting
> > > > > >     > > > > > Windows 7.
> > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > >     > > > > > I therefore would like to propose
that we discontinue
> > > the
> > > > > > support
> > > > > >     > of
> > > > > >     > > > > MXNet
> > > > > >     > > > > > on Windows 7 in the next release.
> > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > >     > > > > > Specifically, this means the following
required
> > > actions:
> > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > >     > > > > > 1) state the discontinuation of
Windows 7 support in
> > > the
> > > > > > release
> > > > > >     > note
> > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > >     > > > > > 2) update the MXNet webpage if
Windows version is
> > > > > mentioned.
> > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > >     > > > > > 3) update the open Github issues
related to Windows 7
> > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > >     > > > > > Please share your thoughts about
this proposal and/or
> > > > > > suggest if
> > > > > >     > > there
> > > > > >     > > > is
> > > > > >     > > > > > any other missing action item from
the above.
> > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > >     > > > > > Best Regards,
> > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > >     > > > > > Lin
> > > > > >     > > > > >
> > > > > >     > > > >
> > > > > >     > > >
> > > > > >     > >
> > > > > >     >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >     --
> > > > > >     Sandeep Krishnamurthy
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> 

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