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From Tianqi Chen <tqc...@cs.washington.edu>
Subject Re: [VOTE] Subscribe dev@ to Github Activities
Date Wed, 18 Jul 2018 17:48:20 GMT
While I do agree that the GitHub issue triaging should be improved,
possibly by moving more user discussions to the discuss forum/user list. I
already see there is a good effort on triaging the issues.

I do think forwarding GitHub activities are a good first step to make
people aware of what is going on. The filtering mechanism means that it is
possible to alleviate this problem for those who don't want to see
"noise"(although most of them are not noises, but bugfixes, discussions
etc.).

Tianqi

On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 10:41 AM, Rahul Huilgol <rahulhuilgol@gmail.com>
wrote:

> The point is not that valuable discussion does not happen on Github. The
> point is that mails about it will be dwarfed by the other activity on
> Github.
>
> On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 10:30 AM, Tianqi Chen <tqchen@cs.washington.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > Being Apache is about being inclusive to the new contributors. Apache
> > encourages the use of Github, and currently, the community is doing so.
> >
> > I don't think it is a good idea to use political terms to force
> proliferate
> > our contributors --- we are all Apache contributors. Instead, we should
> > make all contributors feel inclusive under the frameworks of Apache
> > (including those who contribute and discuss through github, which is
> > currently the majority).
> >
> > On the other hand, the filtering mechanism would work for those who do
> not
> > want to receive the content.
> >
> > Tianqi
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 10:21 AM, Chris Olivier <cjolivier01@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > to know about github discussions, you’d need to scan all issues and prs
> > > constantly which isn’t a reasonable expectation. dev is where
> discussions
> > > are supposed to happen in a apache, PERIOD.
> > >
> > > Apache isn’t dmlc. I wish some people would stop trying to turn Apache
> > > conventions into dmlc conventions.  seems this is a constant push from
> > day
> > > one.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 9:39 AM Sheng Zha <szha.pvg@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thanks, I hear the concerns and it's not my intention to push people
> > off
> > > > the list. On the other hand, I think github discussions are no more
> > > > "artificial" than discussions on dev list, and the good and important
> > > > discussions warrant the same amount of attention. With this vote, I
> > > intend
> > > > to make contributors' life easier by decoupling the recognized forum
> > from
> > > > the technology they use, and that github contributors can easily
> > > > communicate with the community on the list.
> > > >
> > > > -sz
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 9:05 AM, Barber, Christopher <
> > > > Christopher.Barber@analog.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Can't you simply tell contributors to discuss changes on dev before
> > > > > submitting a PR? Since the contribution guidelines don't tell
> > > developers
> > > > to
> > > > > post to dev, why would you expect them to do that?
> > > > >
> > > > > Is there an easy way to just subscribe to PR notifications or will
> > > > someone
> > > > > have to write a filter to avoid spamming dev with all GitHub
> > > > notifications?
> > > > > I think that if dev gets too much traffic, then people with casual
> > > > interest
> > > > > may find it easier to unsubscribe than to set up filters. Once
> > someone
> > > > > unsubscribes, they probably won't be coming back soon, so you
> should
> > be
> > > > > very careful with this.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't see why artificially increasing the traffic on dev will do
> > > > > anything to grow the community in any case.
> > > > >
> > > > > - C
> > > > >
> > > > > On 7/18/18, 11:17 AM, "Indhu" <indhubharathi@gmail.com>
wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >     Some mentors/contributors/committees feel that the amount of
> > > > > discussions in
> > > > >     dev list is too less given the amount of commits that happen
> and
> > > more
> > > > >     discussions need to happen in the dev list to grow the
> community.
> > > > >
> > > > >     In response some committees feel discussions actually happen
in
> > > > GitHub
> > > > > PRs.
> > > > >     If the policy says "if it didn't happen in dev, it didn't
> > happen",
> > > > > let's
> > > > >     forward all GitHub discussions to dev so those discussions
> would
> > > > count.
> > > > >     That's the motivation for this vote.
> > > > >
> > > > >     I think when people say there needs to be more discussions in
> the
> > > dev
> > > > > list,
> > > > >     I assume they mean the kind of discussions that happen
> *before* a
> > > PR
> > > > is
> > > > >     created or even before someone starts working on anything. I
> > don't
> > > > > think
> > > > >     people are asking an email for every activity on GitHub. The
> > > correct
> > > > > way to
> > > > >     address the problem would be for committees/contributors to
> stop
> > > > >     communicating in private channels (like Amazon or DMLC
> > > communication
> > > > >     channels) and do those discussions in the dev list instead.
> > > > >
> > > > >     Indu
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >     On Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 5:51 AM Barber, Christopher <
> > > > >     Christopher.Barber@analog.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >     > Can't people already subscribe to github notifications?
I
> think
> > > it
> > > > > is safe
> > > > >     > to assume that developers are already smart enough to figure
> > out
> > > > how
> > > > > to do
> > > > >     > that if they want. What problem are you really trying to
> solve
> > > > here?
> > > > >     >
> > > > >     > On 7/18/18, 4:49 AM, "Chris Olivier" <cjolivier01@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >     >
> > > > >     >     -1.  (changed from -0.9)
> > > > >     >
> > > > >     >     seems more like a strategy (whether intentional or on
> > > accident)
> > > > > to
> > > > >     > *not*
> > > > >     >     have design discussions on dev by flooding it with noise
> > and
> > > > > then later
> > > > >     >     claim it was discussed, even though you would have to
> sift
> > > > > through
> > > > >     >     thousands of emails to find it.
> > > > >     >
> > > > >     >
> > > > >     >
> > > > >     >     On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 12:42 AM Rahul Huilgol <
> > > > > rahulhuilgol@gmail.com
> > > > >     > >
> > > > >     >     wrote:
> > > > >     >
> > > > >     >     > I pulled up some more stats so we can make an informed
> > > > > decision.
> > > > >     >     >
> > > > >     >     > Here are some popular Apache projects and the number
of
> > > > emails
> > > > > to
> > > > >     > their
> > > > >     >     > dev@
> > > > >     >     > list in the last 30 days
> > > > >     >     > Apache Flink: 540 mails
> > > > >     >     > ​Apache Spark: 249 mails
> > > > >     >     > Apache Hive: 481 mails
> > > > >     >     > Apache HBase: 300 mails
> > > > >     >     >
> > > > >     >     > Current dev list for MXNet: 348 mails
> > > > >     >     > Current commits list for MXNet: 5329 mails
> > > > >     >     > Making the proposed dev list for MXNet to be ~5677
> mails.
> > > > >     >     >
> > > > >     >     > Sheng, even going by your comments that 1 of of
those 4
> > > mails
> > > > > are
> > > > >     > relevant
> > > > >     >     > for dev@, that's still a really high number of
emails.
> > > (130
> > > > > email
> > > > >     > lists
> > > > >     >     > doesn't say anything if we ignore the actual number
of
> > > emails
> > > > > in
> > > > >     > those
> > > > >     >     > lists, especially when the 131st sends these many
mails
> > :)
> > > ).
> > > > > People
> > > > >     > are
> > > > >     >     > already talking about setting up filters here.
Doesn't
> > that
> > > > > defeat
> > > > >     > the
> > > > >     >     > purpose by making people filter out the discussion
on
> > > Github?
> > > > > People
> > > > >     > can
> > > > >     >     > subscribe to commits@ if they find it more convenient
> to
> > > > > follow
> > > > >     > Github
> > > > >     >     > activity over email rather than Github.com.
> > > > >     >     >
> > > > >     >     > We should strive to maintain dev@ as a place for
high
> > > > quality
> > > > >     > discussion.
> > > > >     >     > It's upto the contributors to bring up something
to
> dev@
> > > if
> > > > > they
> > > > >     > believe
> > > > >     >     > it
> > > > >     >     > deserves a focused discussion in the community.
That
> > > > > discussion may
> > > > >     > be
> > > > >     >     > started by the person who proposes code changes,
or a
> > > > reviewer
> > > > > who
> > > > >     > believes
> > > > >     >     > that a particular code change warrants further
> > discussion.
> > > > >     >     >
> > > > >     >     > Regards,
> > > > >     >     > Rahul
> > > > >     >     >
> > > > >     >
> > > > >     >
> > > > >     >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Rahul Huilgol
>

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