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From "Barber, Christopher" <Christopher.Bar...@analog.com>
Subject Re: [VOTE] Subscribe dev@ to Github Activities
Date Wed, 18 Jul 2018 17:39:54 GMT
You should explicitly tell potential contributors what you expect of them. Here is what you
document:

https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/blob/master/docs/community/contribute.md

There is nothing there that tells contributors to discuss proposals on dev first. It sounds
like that needs to be fixed.

On 7/18/18, 1:21 PM, "Chris Olivier" <cjolivier01@gmail.com> wrote:

    to know about github discussions, you’d need to scan all issues and prs
    constantly which isn’t a reasonable expectation. dev is where discussions
    are supposed to happen in a apache, PERIOD.
    
    Apache isn’t dmlc. I wish some people would stop trying to turn Apache
    conventions into dmlc conventions.  seems this is a constant push from day
    one.
    
    
    On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 9:39 AM Sheng Zha <szha.pvg@gmail.com> wrote:
    
    > Thanks, I hear the concerns and it's not my intention to push people off
    > the list. On the other hand, I think github discussions are no more
    > "artificial" than discussions on dev list, and the good and important
    > discussions warrant the same amount of attention. With this vote, I intend
    > to make contributors' life easier by decoupling the recognized forum from
    > the technology they use, and that github contributors can easily
    > communicate with the community on the list.
    >
    > -sz
    >
    > On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 9:05 AM, Barber, Christopher <
    > Christopher.Barber@analog.com> wrote:
    >
    > > Can't you simply tell contributors to discuss changes on dev before
    > > submitting a PR? Since the contribution guidelines don't tell developers
    > to
    > > post to dev, why would you expect them to do that?
    > >
    > > Is there an easy way to just subscribe to PR notifications or will
    > someone
    > > have to write a filter to avoid spamming dev with all GitHub
    > notifications?
    > > I think that if dev gets too much traffic, then people with casual
    > interest
    > > may find it easier to unsubscribe than to set up filters. Once someone
    > > unsubscribes, they probably won't be coming back soon, so you should be
    > > very careful with this.
    > >
    > > I don't see why artificially increasing the traffic on dev will do
    > > anything to grow the community in any case.
    > >
    > > - C
    > >
    > > On 7/18/18, 11:17 AM, "Indhu" <indhubharathi@gmail.com> wrote:
    > >
    > >     Some mentors/contributors/committees feel that the amount of
    > > discussions in
    > >     dev list is too less given the amount of commits that happen and more
    > >     discussions need to happen in the dev list to grow the community.
    > >
    > >     In response some committees feel discussions actually happen in
    > GitHub
    > > PRs.
    > >     If the policy says "if it didn't happen in dev, it didn't happen",
    > > let's
    > >     forward all GitHub discussions to dev so those discussions would
    > count.
    > >     That's the motivation for this vote.
    > >
    > >     I think when people say there needs to be more discussions in the dev
    > > list,
    > >     I assume they mean the kind of discussions that happen *before* a PR
    > is
    > >     created or even before someone starts working on anything. I don't
    > > think
    > >     people are asking an email for every activity on GitHub. The correct
    > > way to
    > >     address the problem would be for committees/contributors to stop
    > >     communicating in private channels (like Amazon or DMLC communication
    > >     channels) and do those discussions in the dev list instead.
    > >
    > >     Indu
    > >
    > >
    > >     On Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 5:51 AM Barber, Christopher <
    > >     Christopher.Barber@analog.com> wrote:
    > >
    > >     > Can't people already subscribe to github notifications? I think it
    > > is safe
    > >     > to assume that developers are already smart enough to figure out
    > how
    > > to do
    > >     > that if they want. What problem are you really trying to solve
    > here?
    > >     >
    > >     > On 7/18/18, 4:49 AM, "Chris Olivier" <cjolivier01@gmail.com>
    > wrote:
    > >     >
    > >     >     -1.  (changed from -0.9)
    > >     >
    > >     >     seems more like a strategy (whether intentional or on accident)
    > > to
    > >     > *not*
    > >     >     have design discussions on dev by flooding it with noise and
    > > then later
    > >     >     claim it was discussed, even though you would have to sift
    > > through
    > >     >     thousands of emails to find it.
    > >     >
    > >     >
    > >     >
    > >     >     On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 12:42 AM Rahul Huilgol <
    > > rahulhuilgol@gmail.com
    > >     > >
    > >     >     wrote:
    > >     >
    > >     >     > I pulled up some more stats so we can make an informed
    > > decision.
    > >     >     >
    > >     >     > Here are some popular Apache projects and the number of
    > emails
    > > to
    > >     > their
    > >     >     > dev@
    > >     >     > list in the last 30 days
    > >     >     > Apache Flink: 540 mails
    > >     >     > ​Apache Spark: 249 mails
    > >     >     > Apache Hive: 481 mails
    > >     >     > Apache HBase: 300 mails
    > >     >     >
    > >     >     > Current dev list for MXNet: 348 mails
    > >     >     > Current commits list for MXNet: 5329 mails
    > >     >     > Making the proposed dev list for MXNet to be ~5677 mails.
    > >     >     >
    > >     >     > Sheng, even going by your comments that 1 of of those 4 mails
    > > are
    > >     > relevant
    > >     >     > for dev@, that's still a really high number of emails. (130
    > > email
    > >     > lists
    > >     >     > doesn't say anything if we ignore the actual number of emails
    > > in
    > >     > those
    > >     >     > lists, especially when the 131st sends these many mails :)
).
    > > People
    > >     > are
    > >     >     > already talking about setting up filters here. Doesn't that
    > > defeat
    > >     > the
    > >     >     > purpose by making people filter out the discussion on Github?
    > > People
    > >     > can
    > >     >     > subscribe to commits@ if they find it more convenient to
    > > follow
    > >     > Github
    > >     >     > activity over email rather than Github.com.
    > >     >     >
    > >     >     > We should strive to maintain dev@ as a place for high
    > quality
    > >     > discussion.
    > >     >     > It's upto the contributors to bring up something to dev@ if
    > > they
    > >     > believe
    > >     >     > it
    > >     >     > deserves a focused discussion in the community. That
    > > discussion may
    > >     > be
    > >     >     > started by the person who proposes code changes, or a
    > reviewer
    > > who
    > >     > believes
    > >     >     > that a particular code change warrants further discussion.
    > >     >     >
    > >     >     > Regards,
    > >     >     > Rahul
    > >     >     >
    > >     >
    > >     >
    > >     >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    >
    

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