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From Steffen Rochel <steffenroc...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: users@mxnet
Date Fri, 22 Jun 2018 14:31:13 GMT
Thanks Isabel and Sergio for the feedback and evaluation criteria.
Based on the discussion I see mixed views in the community.
To summarize my suggestion:
1. Setup user@ list and staff with volunteers to respond to user requests.
2. Make changes based on feedback to grow the user list organically.
3. Decide after 6 months how to continue based on user community adoption
and conversion into contributors.
4. Start tracking how many people from discussion forums convert to
contributors.

I will start a lazy vote on my suggestion tomorrow unless somebody has
strong objections and would like to discuss further.
Steffen

On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 6:47 AM Sergio Fernández <wikier.apache@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Honestly, I'm quite surprised of the level of the reactions on this thread.
> When I started it, I just wanted to expand the community with a tool that,
> even some people consider it "old fashion", it has been proved to help many
> other Apache projects to foster their community in the past.
>
> I guess, until people change their mindset, stop to think as scientist, get
> rid of the affiliation and start to build an open source community, this
> podling will struggle to move forward.
>
> At least I hope the proposal Sebastian have made may be acceptable for most
> of the people who are reluctant to adopt the ASF communication channels.
>
> On Jun 20, 2018 18:38, "Chris Olivier" <cjolivier01@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> +1
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 8:43 AM Steffen Rochel <steffenrochel@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> > I had a discussion yesterday with Jun Wu (wujun.nju@gmail.com) to get a
> > better understanding about the concerns raised, that users might get
> > confused and maintenance efforts.
> > I agree with Jim that building and fostering the community is important.
> > First of all, I suggest we should be open minded and not make claims that
> > we have a good understanding of user preferences. We might have insights
> > about preferences of current users (which I also would question as we
> > sampled only a small set), but we certainly don't have insight about the
> > preferences of new users we are trying to attract.
> > In such situation it might be better to run an experiment, offer choices
> > and collect real feedback - lets be customer focussed.
> > My suggestion is to establish a user@ list and support the list with a
> > volunteer subset of contributors and committers to minimize the
> maintenance
> > impact on the whole community.
> > After a reasonable time like 6 months we can evaluate the adoption of
> user@
> > and effort to support and can make an informed, data driven decision how
> to
> > proceed.
> >
> > I recommend to create the user@ list and call for volunteers to support
> > the
> > list.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Steffen
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 8:10 AM Hagay Lupesko <lupesko@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Jim,
> > >
> > > Earlier on the thread you suggested to clarify and expand on the usage
> > of a
> > > user@ mailing list and how it is useful for a project.
> > >
> > > It may be helpful for the community to learn a bit more about it. Could
> > you
> > > expand and/or share relevant links and examples?
> > >
> > > Thank you,
> > > Hagay
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 07:31 Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Just so we are clear: building and fostering a community takes
> effort.
> > > > Either it is something important to the project, or it's not.
> > > >
> > > > My assumption is that It Is.
> > > >
> > > > > On Jun 18, 2018, at 8:59 PM, YiZhi Liu <eazhi.liu@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I am personally not a big fan of mailing list but agree with Thomas
> > > > > that we may get extra users, which worth a try.
> > > > > On the other hand, I also have concern that we do not have a
> > community
> > > > > big enough to support multiple forums. If people asked questions
> but
> > > > > got no response, that can be worse than not having the mailing list
> > at
> > > > > all.
> > > > > On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 5:46 PM Thomas DELTEIL
> > > > > <thomas.delteil1@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I was actually the one stating that we didn't need a user mailing
> > list
> > > > >> during the Seattle meetup, given all the reasons already exposed
> > > above.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> However given what proponents of a mailing list said, I personally
> > > > wouldn't
> > > > >> mind adding a new channel as a user mailing list, and monitoring
> it.
> > > > There
> > > > >> seems to be a subset of users, used to apache projects, that
> > wouldn't
> > > > use
> > > > >> the forum but would use a mailing list. Though I think it is
not
> as
> > > > >> feature-rich as the forum and there is a risk of dilution of
> > > > information.
> > > > >> It is more about reaching those extra users. If we see a dilution
> of
> > > > >> traffic on the forum towards the mailing list (~currently 100
> > > > posts/week)
> > > > >> then maybe we can reconsider our assumptions?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> All the best,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Thomas Delteil
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 17:30 Pedro Larroy <
> > > pedro.larroy.lists@gmail.com>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> I agree with Tianqi, Eric and others. We shouldn't dilute
the
> > > community
> > > > >>> with another forum. Disqus is already working and has healthy
> > > > >>> participation, you can get an email digest if you so desire.
> > > > Subscribing to
> > > > >>> a mailing list to get a question answered is quite a heavyweight
> > > > investment
> > > > >>> for many people and users who might not have the resources
nor
> > mental
> > > > >>> bandwidth to receive more email volume in their inboxes.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 10:19 AM Tianqi Chen <
> > > tqchen@cs.washington.edu
> > > > >
> > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> The problem of having multiple separate channels of
> communication
> > is
> > > > that
> > > > >>>> users get confused, and the cost of maintenance goes
up(people
> > have
> > > to
> > > > >>>> watch both). As the current community was at discuss
forum and
> > many
> > > > users
> > > > >>>> prefer it, having a mail-list is only a burden we will
bring
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Tianqi
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 9:48 AM, Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>> IMO, that is the wrong way to look at it.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> A users@ mailing list is a great, easy, low-cost
and
> > low-overhead
> > > > way
> > > > >>> of
> > > > >>>>> *increasing* the user community and providing an
extra level of
> > > > >>> support.
> > > > >>>>> Unless there is "strong evidence" that this is NOT
the case, I
> > > would
> > > > >>>>> recommend we create the list.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> On Jun 16, 2018, at 12:28 AM, Tianqi Chen <
> > > tqchen@cs.washington.edu
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> So unless there is a strong evidence that our
community users
> > > > prefers
> > > > >>>> the
> > > > >>>>>> mail-list, I would recommend we keep the current
way
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Tianqi
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 9:25 PM, Sergio Fernández
<
> > > > wikier@apache.org
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Are we targeting just Seattle as our community?
I really hope
> > we
> > > > are
> > > > >>>>>>> thinking a bit beyond that...
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 21:22 Tianqi Chen <
> > > tqchen@cs.washington.edu>
> > > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> I remember last time during the mxnet
meetup in Seattle, we
> > did
> > > a
> > > > >>>>> survey,
> > > > >>>>>>>> and most users preferred the current
discuss forum. So I
> would
> > > say
> > > > >>> we
> > > > >>>>>>> stick
> > > > >>>>>>>> with that given the user community prefers
that
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> Tianqi
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 9:13 PM, Sergio
Fernández <
> > > > >>> wikier@apache.org
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> Then, if everybody agree, let's request
the mailing list
> > > creation
> > > > >>> to
> > > > >>>>>>>> INFRA
> > > > >>>>>>>>> ;-)
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> Marco, I wouldn't do that. Typically
developers are also
> > > > >>> subscribed
> > > > >>>>>>>> there,
> > > > >>>>>>>>> since they may be the most informed
people for answering
> > users'
> > > > >>>>>>>> questions.
> > > > >>>>>>>>> But the topics discussed there may
not be of the interest
> for
> > > > pure
> > > > >>>>>>>>> development purposes. Some discussions
will jump from
> users@
> > > to
> > > > >>>> dev@,
> > > > >>>>>>>> but
> > > > >>>>>>>>> at a different level. So I wouldn't
forward one mailing
> list
> > to
> > > > >>> the
> > > > >>>>>>>> other.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 21:01 Marco
de Abreu
> > > > >>>>>>>>> <marco.g.abreu@googlemail.com.invalid>
wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> I think nobody was opposed to
it in the past, right?
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> I'd propose that all emails automatically
get copied to
> dev@
> > > to
> > > > >>>>>>> ensure
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> high
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> visibility initially. What do
you think?
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Sebastian <ssc@apache.org>
schrieb am Fr., 15. Juni 2018,
> > > > 20:51:
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> I have already proposed this
many times in the past and
> > would
> > > > >>>>>>>> strongly
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> encourage it.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> -s
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> On 15.06.2018 21:56, Sergio
Fernández wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> is there any good reason
why the podling doesn't have a
> > > users@
> > > > >>>>>>>>> mailing
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> list
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> yet?
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Honestly speaking, I'm
not a big fan of the other tools
> > the
> > > > >>>>>>> podling
> > > > >>>>>>>>> is
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> using. Slack and Web
forums a cool tools, and I used
> them
> > a
> > > > lot
> > > > >>>>>>> in
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> other
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> contexts. But when it
comes to transparency and
> community,
> > > > >>>>>>> mailing
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> lists
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> play a crucial role in
the Apache Way.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Users are the most important
asset a project can have.
> > Even
> > > > >>> more
> > > > >>>>>>>> than
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> developers, believe me.
So I think it's time to create a
> > > > users@
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> mailing
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> list for to helping MXNet
grow its community beyong the
> > core
> > > > >>>>>>> team.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Yizhi Liu
> > > > > DMLC member
> > > > > Amazon Web Services
> > > > > Vancouver, Canada
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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