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From Steffen Rochel <steffenroc...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: users@mxnet
Date Wed, 20 Jun 2018 15:43:35 GMT
I had a discussion yesterday with Jun Wu (wujun.nju@gmail.com) to get a
better understanding about the concerns raised, that users might get
confused and maintenance efforts.
I agree with Jim that building and fostering the community is important.
First of all, I suggest we should be open minded and not make claims that
we have a good understanding of user preferences. We might have insights
about preferences of current users (which I also would question as we
sampled only a small set), but we certainly don't have insight about the
preferences of new users we are trying to attract.
In such situation it might be better to run an experiment, offer choices
and collect real feedback - lets be customer focussed.
My suggestion is to establish a user@ list and support the list with a
volunteer subset of contributors and committers to minimize the maintenance
impact on the whole community.
After a reasonable time like 6 months we can evaluate the adoption of user@
and effort to support and can make an informed, data driven decision how to
proceed.

I recommend to create the user@ list and call for volunteers to support the
list.

Regards,
Steffen

On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 8:10 AM Hagay Lupesko <lupesko@gmail.com> wrote:

> Jim,
>
> Earlier on the thread you suggested to clarify and expand on the usage of a
> user@ mailing list and how it is useful for a project.
>
> It may be helpful for the community to learn a bit more about it. Could you
> expand and/or share relevant links and examples?
>
> Thank you,
> Hagay
>
> On Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 07:31 Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
> > Just so we are clear: building and fostering a community takes effort.
> > Either it is something important to the project, or it's not.
> >
> > My assumption is that It Is.
> >
> > > On Jun 18, 2018, at 8:59 PM, YiZhi Liu <eazhi.liu@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I am personally not a big fan of mailing list but agree with Thomas
> > > that we may get extra users, which worth a try.
> > > On the other hand, I also have concern that we do not have a community
> > > big enough to support multiple forums. If people asked questions but
> > > got no response, that can be worse than not having the mailing list at
> > > all.
> > > On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 5:46 PM Thomas DELTEIL
> > > <thomas.delteil1@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I was actually the one stating that we didn't need a user mailing list
> > >> during the Seattle meetup, given all the reasons already exposed
> above.
> > >>
> > >> However given what proponents of a mailing list said, I personally
> > wouldn't
> > >> mind adding a new channel as a user mailing list, and monitoring it.
> > There
> > >> seems to be a subset of users, used to apache projects, that wouldn't
> > use
> > >> the forum but would use a mailing list. Though I think it is not as
> > >> feature-rich as the forum and there is a risk of dilution of
> > information.
> > >> It is more about reaching those extra users. If we see a dilution of
> > >> traffic on the forum towards the mailing list (~currently 100
> > posts/week)
> > >> then maybe we can reconsider our assumptions?
> > >>
> > >> All the best,
> > >>
> > >> Thomas Delteil
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 17:30 Pedro Larroy <
> pedro.larroy.lists@gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I agree with Tianqi, Eric and others. We shouldn't dilute the
> community
> > >>> with another forum. Disqus is already working and has healthy
> > >>> participation, you can get an email digest if you so desire.
> > Subscribing to
> > >>> a mailing list to get a question answered is quite a heavyweight
> > investment
> > >>> for many people and users who might not have the resources nor mental
> > >>> bandwidth to receive more email volume in their inboxes.
> > >>>
> > >>> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 10:19 AM Tianqi Chen <
> tqchen@cs.washington.edu
> > >
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> The problem of having multiple separate channels of communication
is
> > that
> > >>>> users get confused, and the cost of maintenance goes up(people
have
> to
> > >>>> watch both). As the current community was at discuss forum and
many
> > users
> > >>>> prefer it, having a mail-list is only a burden we will bring
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tianqi
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 9:48 AM, Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> IMO, that is the wrong way to look at it.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> A users@ mailing list is a great, easy, low-cost and low-overhead
> > way
> > >>> of
> > >>>>> *increasing* the user community and providing an extra level
of
> > >>> support.
> > >>>>> Unless there is "strong evidence" that this is NOT the case,
I
> would
> > >>>>> recommend we create the list.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Jun 16, 2018, at 12:28 AM, Tianqi Chen <
> tqchen@cs.washington.edu
> > >
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> So unless there is a strong evidence that our community
users
> > prefers
> > >>>> the
> > >>>>>> mail-list, I would recommend we keep the current way
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Tianqi
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 9:25 PM, Sergio Fernández <
> > wikier@apache.org
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Are we targeting just Seattle as our community? I really
hope we
> > are
> > >>>>>>> thinking a bit beyond that...
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 21:22 Tianqi Chen <
> tqchen@cs.washington.edu>
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> I remember last time during the mxnet meetup in
Seattle, we did
> a
> > >>>>> survey,
> > >>>>>>>> and most users preferred the current discuss forum.
So I would
> say
> > >>> we
> > >>>>>>> stick
> > >>>>>>>> with that given the user community prefers that
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Tianqi
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 9:13 PM, Sergio Fernández
<
> > >>> wikier@apache.org
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Then, if everybody agree, let's request the
mailing list
> creation
> > >>> to
> > >>>>>>>> INFRA
> > >>>>>>>>> ;-)
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Marco, I wouldn't do that. Typically developers
are also
> > >>> subscribed
> > >>>>>>>> there,
> > >>>>>>>>> since they may be the most informed people
for answering users'
> > >>>>>>>> questions.
> > >>>>>>>>> But the topics discussed there may not be of
the interest for
> > pure
> > >>>>>>>>> development purposes. Some discussions will
jump from users@
> to
> > >>>> dev@,
> > >>>>>>>> but
> > >>>>>>>>> at a different level. So I wouldn't forward
one mailing list to
> > >>> the
> > >>>>>>>> other.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 21:01 Marco de Abreu
> > >>>>>>>>> <marco.g.abreu@googlemail.com.invalid>
wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> I think nobody was opposed to it in the
past, right?
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> I'd propose that all emails automatically
get copied to dev@
> to
> > >>>>>>> ensure
> > >>>>>>>>>> high
> > >>>>>>>>>> visibility initially. What do you think?
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Sebastian <ssc@apache.org> schrieb
am Fr., 15. Juni 2018,
> > 20:51:
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> I have already proposed this many times
in the past and would
> > >>>>>>>> strongly
> > >>>>>>>>>>> encourage it.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> -s
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On 15.06.2018 21:56, Sergio Fernández
wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> is there any good reason why the
podling doesn't have a
> users@
> > >>>>>>>>> mailing
> > >>>>>>>>>>> list
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> yet?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Honestly speaking, I'm not a big
fan of the other tools the
> > >>>>>>> podling
> > >>>>>>>>> is
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> using. Slack and Web forums a cool
tools, and I used them a
> > lot
> > >>>>>>> in
> > >>>>>>>>>> other
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> contexts. But when it comes to
transparency and community,
> > >>>>>>> mailing
> > >>>>>>>>>> lists
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> play a crucial role in the Apache
Way.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Users are the most important asset
a project can have. Even
> > >>> more
> > >>>>>>>> than
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> developers, believe me. So I think
it's time to create a
> > users@
> > >>>>>>>>>> mailing
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> list for to helping MXNet grow
its community beyong the core
> > >>>>>>> team.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Yizhi Liu
> > > DMLC member
> > > Amazon Web Services
> > > Vancouver, Canada
> >
> >
>

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